Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[TransmutingSoul]

Well the station of these messengers is more by popular vote (in believing in them) than much else it seems to me. I have little faith in historical writings as to any veracity other than general truths, so I see no reason to accept any as any particular authority. And that goes for messengers too, especially when they are often raised up to be idols - something we are often told not to have - but it just happens in practice. Such are humans.

Yes it can seem that way indeed. I have personally found that faith opens doors to thoughts as to how the material and spiritual are connected. Our acceptance of relative Truth is given greater clarity.

Yet the more clarity we think we may have just raises many more possibilities. I see this is progress. If we do not progress we are actually moving backwards, I see the middle ground is not progress.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

My post offered we need to find new sources. I see cities will not be a s big, there will be more satellite communities.

"The projected population size of New Delhi in 2028 is about 37.2 million, surpassing Tokyo's 36.8 million, it added."
populous city: Delhi projected to become world's most populous city around 2028: UN report - The Economic Times

If there are more people, then there will be bigger cities also. Delhi by 2028 will be the largest city of the world. Unfortunately, what all you offer is impractical, including unity of humankind and universal love and brotherhood. Utopia, pipe-dreams. I can't believe that God / Allah and his manifestations are so ill-informed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I might want to se the others too, but the Bab and Baha'u'llah are on the top of my list, then Jesus if He is available to Baha'is.

This offers the thought, they can all be there.

".... Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"The projected population size of New Delhi in 2028 is about 37.2 million, surpassing Tokyo's 36.8 million, it added."
populous city: Delhi projected to become world's most populous city around 2028: UN report - The Economic Times

If there are more people, then there will be bigger cities also. Delhi by 2028 will be the largest city of the world. Unfortunately, what all you offer is impractical, including unity of humankind and universal love and brotherhood. Utopia, pipe-dreams. I can't believe that God / Allah and his manifestations are so uninformed.

I see that there are too many humans for the planet to sustain, there most likely will be a balance and a new civilization to build. It has been offers that our current cities are a hive of materialism.

Baha'u'llah also offers as a thought, he asked us why we fight over our grave and asks us to consider past civilization ls, where are all those great civilizations that took materialism to the extremes?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Conclusion: when either of them are talking to a nonbeliever about the resurrection of Jesus in accordance to reality, both of them are making the claim that Jesus was literally resurrected from the dead. So both of them share the same burden of proof, regardless of who made that claim first.

Only if they assert that a belief x is true are they making a claim. Saying I believe x is true is not a claim.
Why do so many atheists want to turn a belief into a claim?

Belief: an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=belief+means

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

 

[Trailblazer]

This offers the thought, they can all be there.

".... Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men...." Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

Regards Tony

I love that passage but I had forgotten it momentarily.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I love that passage but I had forgotten it momentarily.

There is too much to remember.

Thank God for Google.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

And I've said many times that I understand that point.

I also believe I've said that I am interested in the real world itself, not just how it is perceived. So I want a method that gets as close to an objective view of the real world as possible. And that's science.

Fine then, I guess you should just forget about God and religion.

I beg to differ. My source says: "Baha’u’llah dictated his works so rapidly that his secretary develop his own form of shorthand. It can be read with practice." Also: "Most of Baha’u’llah’s revelations were dictated to his secretary. These were recorded initially in a form of short-hand which became known as ‘revelation writing’."

You can read it HERE. I've already provided this link to you, when we were talking about how many words Mr B produced.

Okay maybe that is true, but somehow it got translated into what we are reading in English.
That link did not work.

You were talking about evidence you gathered AFTER you were already a believer, yes? In that case, it is very relevant. I said, "people are very willing to accept any claims that support what they already believe without casting a critical eye over them."

Why wouldn't I gather more evidence after I was already a believer? Baha'is believe that we should continue to seek truth throughout our lives. How do you KNOW I did not cast a critical eye over the additional evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

Agreed. And so the question is this: Is there any real world evidence that shows that he was a messenger from God.

This first question is a simple yes or no.

Yes, there is real world evidence that *shows* that to me and other Baha'is.
I cannot say what that real world evidence will show you and others.

No, it remains your obligation since you are saying his claims are true.

No, it is not my obligation to prove to anyone else that my beliefs are true just because I say I believe they are true. Baha'u'llah made that perfectly clear that it is not my obligation when He said:

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

What that means is that even if I wanted to convince you that my beliefs are true I could never convince you that my beliefs are true because you have to convince yourself of that. Belief has to come from your own mind, not my mind.

By your logic, all anyone has to do to avoid the burden of proof is to die. Then, apparently, their claims can be presented as true with no requirement at all to show they are correct!

I had no idea what you were talking about but now I do. See my reply to samtonga43.
#2032 Trailblazer, A moment ago

 

[Trailblazer]

At least you are open and honest regarding your intellectual dishonesty.

What is intellectually dishonest about being honest regarding interpretations of Bible passages I don't agree with?

And I've said many times, what you have is not actual evidence, no matter how much you claim it is.

And I've said many times, what I have is actual evidence *to me* no matter how much you claim it is not.
You cannot determine what constitutes evidence for another person.

 

[samtonga43]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

You said:
"Baha'u'llah is obligated to support it since He is the one who made the claim."

The B.man is dead. Do you understand now?

 

[Trailblazer]

You said:
"Baha'u'llah is obligated to support it since He is the one who made the claim."

The B.man is dead. Do you understand now?

I do understand but I think it is ludicrous because Baha'u'llah does not need to be alive on earth in order to prove who He is. What would He do to bear the burden of proof if He was alive, talk to all 7.8 billion people in the world and say "I am a Messenger of God?"

Did Jesus have to be alive to prove who He was? No, people who lived after Jesus ascended to heaven had the Gospels as proof of what He said and did and what He was like as a Person. Likewise, people living after Baha'u'llah ascended to heaven had the written accounts of what Baha'u'llah was like as a Person and they had the Revelation of Baha'ullah (the documented history) and they had His Writings. We still have all those things today for Christianity and the Baha'i Faith.

 

[samtonga43]

So what you mean is that the B.man's dictated words are obligated to support it.

But how can words be obligated to support anything?
However, I note your acceptance that "the Gospels are proof of what He said and did and what He was like as a Person".

LOL! Even I would not use the word 'proof'.

 

[samtonga43]

And I will continue to do so.

You say that you will continue to discount anything you want to discount regarding interpretations of Bible passages you don't agree with.

Are you sure you have good reasons for discounting interpretations of Bible passages you don't agree with? Are you certain that they can be discounted?

'Always consider the possibility that you may be wrong. Especially when you are absolutely certain you are right.' William Brinkley

 

[CG Didymus]

Our exceptance is relative to our recognition of the station of those Messengers.

My usual question... What is the definition of a "manifestation"? I think one of them is that they are perfect reflections of God. If that is truly one of them, then I think it discounts several of the people Baha'is say are manifestations. Like Adam, Noah, Abraham, and even Moses. Maybe prophets. Maybe imperfect, ordinary people that turned to God most of the time. But not perfect reflections of God. And what else defines a manifestation? Innate knowledge, maybe? The other problem... is Baha'i don't take the Bible stories of those people literally. So Baha'u'llah has come up with his own versions of who they were and what they did. Where did he get that information? From Islam or from something God told him?

There was a golden age in Islam.

"The era of the Abbasid Caliphs’ construction and rule of Baghdad is known as the Golden Age of Islam." So the Abbasids were the true and rightful leaders of Islam? 'Cause I thought Baha'is say that both the Umayyads and Abbasids were not good guys and made them the beasts and dragons in Revelation? Do I have it wrong?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what you mean is that the B.man's dictated words are obligated to support it.

No, that is not what I mean. AGAIN:

Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

But how can words be obligated to support anything?

The Words of Baha'u'llah are His Writings, and they are part of the evidence that support His claims.

However, I note your acceptance that "the Gospels are proof of what He said and did and what He was like as a Person".

LOL! Even I would not use the word 'proof'.

We all have varying amounts of faith. The Gospels are proof to many Christians.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you sure you have good reasons for discounting interpretations of Bible passages you don't agree with? Are you certain that they can be discounted?

If they are my own interpretations it is possible they could be discounted but they cannot be discounted if they were interpreted by Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l-Baha and the 'good reason' is in the passage below.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

Since I believe that Baha’u’llah was the Representative of God among men and He appointed interpreters through His Covenant, if any of them interpreted the Bible, their interpretation is the bottom line as far as I am concerned, so if any other interpretation contradicts their interpretation I am certain it can be discounted.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My usual question... What is the definition of a "manifestation"? I think one of them is that they are perfect reflections of God. If that is truly one of them, then I think it discounts several of the people Baha'is say are manifestations. Like Adam, Noah, Abraham, and even Moses. Maybe prophets. Maybe imperfect, ordinary people that turned to God most of the time. But not perfect reflections of God. And what else defines a manifestation? Innate knowledge, maybe? The other problem... is Baha'i don't take the Bible stories of those people literally. So Baha'u'llah has come up with his own versions of who they were and what they did. Where did he get that information? From Islam or from something God told him?

CG, all this is found in the Kitab-i-Iqan. All the thoughts I can give you would be from that book, and the many other writings supporting what is offerd in that book.

It also offered why some Mesengers are seen in a different Light.

I am more inclined to look at most things in Spiritual Metephor, especially when contemplating on this passage.from Baha'u'llah.

"The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may, moreover, be likened unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found, in the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot “fatten nor appease his hunger.”

"The era of the Abbasid Caliphs’ construction and rule of Baghdad is known as the Golden Age of Islam." So the Abbasids were the true and rightful leaders of Islam? 'Cause I thought Baha'is say that both the Umayyads and Abbasids were not good guys and made them the beasts and dragons in Revelation? Do I have it wrong?

Islam did not reach the potential it had, no Faith has to date, yet they have all shaped the future we now face and the choice we have to embrace our oneness. Our ability as a world citizen to embrace what Baha'u'llah offered will also see humanity reach a collective potential in the future, which I see in this age will not be its full potential. The timing of the most Great Peace is unknown, but we have missed the full potential of this Faith, Baha’u’llah thrown away many of the writings into the tigress River, saying mankind was not ready for them.

You are correct about the book of Revelation, Islam did not reach its full potential either, God knows it all and that is how it is set in Prophecy in a way that still gives our hearts a goal to reach.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

."....... Are you sure you have good reasons for discounting interpretations of Bible passages you don't agree with? Are you certain that they can be discounted?

'Always consider the possibility that you may be wrong. Especially when you are absolutely certain you are right.' William Brinkley

That is what Faith in a Messenger from God is all about.

They either give answer to those questions, or they do not and that is 100% entirely each individuals choice.

Interpretation of those answers can reflect what William Brinkley offers.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Only if they assert that a belief x is true are they making a claim. Saying I believe x is true is not a claim.
Why do so many atheists want to turn a belief into a claim?

Belief: an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=belief+means

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

When Baha'is teach the Faith are they claiming it is the truth? Or, are they saying that they believe it is true, but they might be wrong? Then, what's this about, "typically without providing evidence or proof"? What's needed and being asked for is evidence and proof. If the Baha'i writings can't provide that, then how does anyone come to believe Baha'u'llah's claims are true?

For me, I've asked about the supposed "fulfilled" prophecies. Too many of them weren't all that good. As I've said before, one of the best ones is that 1260 days turned into lunar years comes out to 1844 if we start it in 621AD. But then I question Baha'is as to why six times, with six different things, that have something that can be converted into 1260 lunar years, but that begin and end at different times, are all made to start and end at the same time? So you've said that prophecies don't prove anything, because they can be interpreted, and misinterpreted, different ways to show whatever a person wants. Like saying that an earthquake, a smoky day, and a meteor shower halfway around the world and years before 1844, were prophecy fulfilled.

The big prophecy is still hanging out there... When the Messiah comes, he will bring peace. Even that needs a little interpreting to make it mean that Baha'u'llah put the things into motion that would someday lead to peace, but he's long gone and there's no peace yet. So we wait. And ask, "Is he for real?"