Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[CG Didymus]

Writing words, no matter how poetic they are, not how fast they were written, is not a superhuman accomplishment. There are many skilled authors today who have achieved great acclaim and who are extremely prolific in their writings, but that does not mean they are likewise sent by God.

And I suppose you don't believe that Joseph Smith had special spectacles that allowed him to translate some Golden Plates that an angel had told him about? And I wouldn't blame you.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, there is nobody who ever wrote as much as rapidly as Baha'u'llah. You can believe whatever you want to about that and you will.

Writing rapidly is one of the tests? Okay, there is one proof. What about what he wrote? Right near the start of The Book of Certitude is where he says that Noah "exhorted" his people for 950 years. Do we believe him literally or allegorically?

 

[CG Didymus]

Method of knowing what Jesus did? My method is not arbitrary. I believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote that Jesus did.

And what do they say he did as compared to what the gospels say he did?

 

[CG Didymus]

I haven't found anything in the Baha'i Faith that could possibly supplant what the Christian Faith teaches.

In fact, before posting here, my original impression of Baha'i teachings was more positive than it is now.

I learned about the Baha'i Faith before I read the Bible and learned about Christianity. I assumed I was being told the truth. But, of course, the born again Christian "truth" wasn't way different. I do think that either one could still be right, since they both predict things will get worse and then either... the world will turn to the Baha'i Faith to fix our problems... or Jesus will return and do away will evil. The big thing for me is that I don't see the return of the Christ until the end of all sorts of bad things happen. Baha'u'llah came and went and things got worse. They say that is because the leaders of the world rejected him. So maybe. With the way things are going, we might be getting close to the end.

 

[CG Didymus]

They don't contradict the Qur'an, they only contradict your interpretation of some verses in the Qur'an.
Same with the Bible. They don't contradict the Bible, they only contradict the commonly held Christian interpretation of some verses in the Bible.

Baha'u'llah says that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Of course he knows better if he is a manifestation. But then who and when did the story get changed in the Bible? But, it still contradicts what is in today's Bible.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'i Faith does not need to reconcile all the religions of the past to the Baha'i Faith and make them fit as @CG Didymus seems to think we are obligated to do,

Baha'is do try and reconcile all the religions. They say Buddha taught about the one true God. They get rid of reincarnation in both Hinduism and Buddhism. Some religions like Jainism, Shintoism, and whatever ancient Egypt believed and many others, Baha'is don't mention them. Oh, and they hardly mention Hinduism. And Baha'is say that "originally" they all taught the same spiritual truths but only varied in the "social" teachings. But then more things came into all these other religions that contradict the Baha'is teachings. These were traditions of men that got added into the religion, along with misinterpretations... The good old taking allegorical stories literally. Those idiots.

They don't fit, until the Baha'is make a few adjustments to them. Then they do fit. It's all a wonderful progression of God's teachings.

 

[paarsurrey]

Well I don't know. We have born-again Christians that need Jesus to have died on the cross so he could be raised from the dead. Baha'is need him to have died on the cross and rose only in spirit. In Islam he didn't die, but then what? Do you believe that he came to the apostles after? And what about him appearing and disappearing? Those things were just written in, but didn't really happen?

But that's another thing, the atonement, him having to die to pay the penalty for the inherited sin caused by Adam's fall. Baha'is don't need nor want it. What does Islam do with it?

" Jesus was secretive as he was afraid to be caught again and killed by the Jews. It is so simple. Why make it difficult, please?"

When Jesus was seen by his friends/disciples, it simply meant that Jesus was the same person as he was before the event of Crucifixion. a human being and messenger/prophet nothing more. Right?

Islam has to do with Jesus as Islam has to do with Moses or Buddha or Krishna or Zoroaster. We respect and love them being chosen by G-d for the humanity to guide them to G-d their Creator. Right?
Is it a small thing, please?

Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

" Jesus was secretive as he was afraid to be caught again and killed by the Jews. It is so simple. Why make it difficult, please?"

When Jesus was seen by his friends/disciples, it simply meant that Jesus was the same person as he was before the event of Crucifixion. a human being and messenger/prophet nothing more. Right?

Islam has to do with Jesus as Islam has to do with Moses or Buddha or Krishna or Zoroaster. We respect and love them being chosen by G-d for the humanity to guide them to G-d their Creator. Right?
Is it a small thing, please?

Regards

Then Christians and Baha'is are wrong? How do you explain that? With the Baha'i Faith it might be easy, you might not believe they are the truth. But with the gospel story, it has Jesus dying and then coming back to life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those acts of God are fictional and maybe their God is fictional too. But, if literal, and their ancestors witnessed these things, as the Bible says, then they have a type of proof that God does reward them when they do good and obey. But brings punishments to them when they disobey. And I think that is the grander lesson of those stories. Obey... get rewarded. Disobey and get yourself smote. But then once a person starts taking all those stories as being fictional, why fear or even believe in that God?

Why would God be fictional just because fictional stories were written about Him? If God exists, God is still one to fear. Even if the stories were literally true, who could ever prove it? I think they were written with the intention of being stories with lessons. Obey... get rewarded. Disobey and get yourself smote.

 

[Trailblazer]

Too bad Jesus didn't do a little writing.

It might have been nice, but it was not meant to be at that time in history.... so we have to have faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you explain that? With the Baha'i Faith it might be easy, you might not believe they are the truth. But with the gospel story, it has Jesus dying and then coming back to life.

Why would it be easy to believe a story about Jesus dying and coming back to life, just because it was written in a book? And NOT believe in the Baha'i Faith just because it is a smaller religion not yet believed by many people? You should know that Christianity was also a small religion in the beginning. Just wait 2000 years and see how large the Baha'i Faith becomes.

 

[Trailblazer]

Writing rapidly is one of the tests? Okay, there is one proof. What about what he wrote? Right near the start of The Book of Certitude is where he says that Noah "exhorted" his people for 950 years. Do we believe him literally or allegorically?

I think that means that the dispensation of Noah was 950 years long, not that Noah actually lived for 950 years.

I suggest you read this: Book of Certitude - Noah - Baha'i Library Forum

 

[Trailblazer]

And what do they say he did as compared to what the gospels say he did?

You are familiar with some of those passages in the Baha'i Writings. No, they are not all the same as what the gospels say, but some of them are similar and reflect the gospels. For example:

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah says that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Of course he knows better if he is a manifestation. But then who and when did the story get changed in the Bible? But, it still contradicts what is in today's Bible.

Both the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings say it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice. So why should we believe that an ancient text like the Old Testament is more accurate?

"The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance."

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is do try and reconcile all the religions. They say Buddha taught about the one true God. They get rid of reincarnation in both Hinduism and Buddhism. Some religions like Jainism, Shintoism, and whatever ancient Egypt believed and many others, Baha'is don't mention them.

We do not try to reconcile them. We just explain what we believe they taught before they were altered by men..

What does it mean to reconcile something?

reconcile • \REK-un-syle\ • verb. 1 a : to restore to friendship or harmony b : to settle or resolve (differences) 2 : to make consistent or congruous 3 : to cause to submit to or accept something unpleasant 4 : to check (a financial account) against another for accuracy.

Definition of reconcile - Merriam-Webster

They don't fit, until the Baha'is make a few adjustments to them. Then they do fit. It's all a wonderful progression of God's teachings.

As I said in my post to @samtonga43 that Bahai Faith is not trying to make the older religions FIT with the Baha'i Faith. They will never FIT and we are nit trying to make them FIT. There no reason that they should FIT because they were revealed thousands of years ago.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would God be fictional just because fictional stories were written about Him? If God exists, God is still one to fear. Even if the stories were literally true, who could ever prove it? I think they were written with the intention of being stories with lessons. Obey... get rewarded. Disobey and get yourself smote.

Because lots of religions had concepts of God or Gods that we don't believe are true but made up by the people in that culture. I always bring up the Aztec Gods. If we really wanted to, I'm sure we could interpret them allegorically and say that the foolish Aztecs took those stories too literally and thought the Sun God really needed a human to be sacrificed in order to make sure they have good crops. And I'll bet the sacrifices actually worked sometimes, and they did have good crops. Or, it was all made up stuff they invented, including their God.

 

[CG Didymus]

It might have been nice, but it was not meant to be at that time in history.... so we have to have faith.

But in Judaism, some believe that Moses did write. And that even God wrote the 10 commandments. So is that allegorical or just made up stuff?

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would it be easy to believe a story about Jesus dying and coming back to life, just because it was written in a book? And NOT believe in the Baha'i Faith just because it is a smaller religion not yet believed by many people? You should know that Christianity was also a small religion in the beginning. Just wait 2000 years and see how large the Baha'i Faith becomes.

It's more than not wanting him to have come back to life. The rest of the story includes all that other stuff about him needing to die in order to pay for the sins of the world and you know the rest of that story. Baha'is don't believe it and don't want it. The easiest solution is to have Jesus dead and gone and not coming back. So, although the writers make it sound like Jesus came back to life, Baha'is make that part of the story symbolic. And again I ask, then why believe in the just as unscientific belief of the virgin birth. Something based on one, out of context verse in Isaiah. None of the rest of the verses fit into the Jesus story. But you know that I'd prefer, that if the Jesus story isn't 100% true, then I think it is all totally fiction.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think that means that the dispensation of Noah was 950 years long, not that Noah actually lived for 950 years.

I suggest you read this: Book of Certitude - Noah - Baha'i Library Forum

Yes and it says we can't interpret it as his dispensation.
"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)

 

[CG Didymus]

You are familiar with some of those passages in the Baha'i Writings. No, they are not all the same as what the gospels say, but some of them are similar and reflect the gospels. For example:

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134

So all manifestations had the power and authority to forgive sins? This thing about sins and needing forgiveness is mostly a Christian thing. In Judaism the Laws God told to Moses had the people offer a sacrifice to God.

(W)hen a private individual sins, his offering must be either a female kid or a female lamb without blemish, or, if he is too poor to provide one of these, a turtle-dove.​