Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[samtonga43]

That's awesome. By not taking the Bible too literally, I think you might like a lot of what the Baha'i Faith teaches. What do you think so far?

I haven't found anything in the Baha'i Faith that could possibly supplant what the Christian Faith teaches.

In fact, before posting here, my original impression of Baha'i teachings was more positive than it is now.

 

[firedragon]

Exactly.

God passes by was written by Effendi in and around 1950. Maybe a few years earlier. He was appointed by his father who lived for 80 years. Bahaullah was his grandfather who wrote the book they are talking about, kithab I iqhan which if someone witnessed and told a story has to be passed down orally. So at least, I say that again, at least in the very least, someone has to analyse this story with those steps I spoke of. AT LEAST.

Cheers.

 

[samtonga43]

Isn't there another story about how the His jailers were so taken with Him that they gave Him special privileges?

And this means........?
His jailers liked him.

So he was sent by God?
Illogical.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

So what? They all have a particular word in them. I see no reason to conclude that the fact they all contain the same word means they have some deeper meaning.

Your argument is like saying that Attila the Hun and Winnie the Pooh are somehow connected because their names both contain the word "The."

Yes. They all have a particular word in them.

Mighty also has the word Horse (and chariot):



Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 39:20

Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their mighty ones. Judges 5:22


The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein. Jeremiah 8:16



And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. Zechariah 9:10


The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle. Psalm 78:9


And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Revelation 6:2





He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins. Lamentations 3:13





Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Isaiah 5:28

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. 2 Kings 6:17


Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Joel 2:5

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2



Mighty also has the word Benjamin:


Now there was a man of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man of power. 1 Samuel 9:1

And the sons of Ulam were mighty men of valour, archers, and had many sons, and sons' sons, an hundred and fifty. All these are of the sons of Benjamin. 1 Chronicles 8:40

And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. 2 Chronicles 14:8




Ephraim the chariot, and Dan the horse are part of the same group.

Ephraim is part of Joseph.



Joseph is the sheep:

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm 80:1



Benjamin is the wolf:

Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.





As you can see: The wolf (Benjamin) is with the lamb (Joseph):

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel 48:32


.The wolf, and the lamb, is with the horse.

.

 

[Muffled]

And the difference is that we know Baha'u'llah did these things because it is modern recorded history. By contrast, how can we ever know that Jesus did everything it says He did in the NT? Yet people still believe He did them.

But for most people, the evidence for Baha'u'llah is never enough.

I believe it works out the same way. What one is reading is what the person is saying.
Matt 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

 

[Trailblazer]

And this means........?
His jailers liked him.

So he was sent by God?
Illogical.

I never said that because his jailers like him that means he was sent by God.
Please do not misrepresent me.

 

[Trailblazer]

So basically its "because they saY so". But they contradict the Quran, and use what ever is convenient for them from the bible . Thats no method.

They don't contradict the Qur'an, they only contradict your interpretation of some verses in the Qur'an.
Same with the Bible. They don't contradict the Bible, they only contradict the commonly held Christian interpretation of some verses in the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't be silly, Tb. You cannot possibly know this.

I do know and there is nothing you can do about what I know.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you have no evidence,

I do have evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

I haven't found anything in the Baha'i Faith that could possibly supplant what the Christian Faith teaches.

I haven't found anything in Christianity that could possibly supplant what the Baha'i Faith teaches.

If God is a loving and just God, it is IMpossible that only one religion is the Truth from God and that is Christianity. It is IMpossible that a loving and just God would reveal only one true religion and that 67% of the world population will not have any eternal life.

This is logically impossible if God is a loving and just God.

There are so many reasons why Christianity as it is commonly believed (e.g. Jesus is the Only Way) cannot be true. This is just one reason, probably the most important reason.

The Baha'i Faith does not need to reconcile all the religions of the past to the Baha'i Faith and make them fit as @CG Didymus seems to think we are obligated to do, because one cannot put new wine in old wine sacs, as Jesus said. Moreover, the older religions have been irreparably corrupted by man over the course of time, so what is commonly believed by believers is not what was originally revealed by the Messengers of the past.

Below is from a post that was posted some time ago that I saved in a Word document. I don't have the link but below is the conversation:
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
Poster: Surely they could have been mistaken. Im merely stating from their point of view, that this were what they believed and what those following Judaism also believe today. Personally I have no clue, the only thing I can conclude from reading the bible, is that Baha'u'llah and what he is teaching simply doesn't fit with what is written in it, when you look at the stories in contexts.

TB: Why would Baha’u’llah *fit* in the Bible stories? Those stories have nothing to do with Baha’u’llah. Moreover, the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is so vast that it has been likened to an ocean so it does not *fit* in a little box.

One cannot make a newer religion like the Baha’i Faith *fit* into the same mold as the older religions such as Judaism or Christianity because Baha'i is a much more expansive revelation and has many more components that the older religions did not have; so Baha’i cannot be made to fit into the Bible mold.

Luke 5:37-38 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.”

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Poster: And apparently a lot of people from other religions agree with me, otherwise I think we would see a whole lot more Bahai followers than we do, we would see a massive increase in followers as these prophecies ought to be obvious to everyone.

TB: I also find this verse very significant:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Jesus was right, as that is what actually happens... Christians or Jews or any older religious believers who have drunk the old wine do not desire the new Baha’i wine; they say the old is better. That is why we do not see a massive increase in Baha’is.

No, the prophecies are not obvious because Jews and Christians have already misinterpreted the prophecies to suit their fancy and they are SURE they are RIGHT. They have both made the Messiah in their own image; the slight problem is that their Messiah has not come and He is not coming because He has already come in the Person of Baha’u’llah.

 

[firedragon]

They don't contradict the Qur'an, they only contradict your interpretation of some verses in the Qur'an.
Same with the Bible. They don't contradict the Bible, they only contradict the commonly held Christian interpretation of some verses in the Bible.

Oh yes they do contradict the Quran, and the Bible both. The thing is, this contradiction they tried to reconcile with a lot of hard work. Like saying "they killed Jesus's elemental body, not the divine form which lives forever" which is just an attempt to reconcile the Bible and the Quran to suit the apologetics.

So that is not "interpretation", it is reconciliation. So just saying "your interpretation and my interpretation" is another apologetic tactic to say some cliche like "interpretation problem". This is not an interpretation problem. It is a direct contradiction which they try to reconcile by hook or crook.

Same goes to the Bible.

They use some Christian apologetic tactics to validate the Bible, but also use some Muslim apologetics to validate prophecy of the Bible, while when they cant afford to validate "some parts" of the Bible they use that famous cliche "allegory" arbitrarily, and when they cannot validate some parts of the Quran like above they use the famous cliche "interpretation".

That would work with those who claim quite commonly "I have studied the Quran, the Bible, and the Vedas, and the Buddhist scripture" but have not even read them properly leaving aside studying them. It would not work with anyone who have honestly studied them.

This interpretation cliche will only work with the Bahai's, and maybe with some individuals like I said above sis.

Have a good day.

 

[Trailblazer]

I haven't found anything in the Baha'i Faith that could possibly supplant what the Christian Faith teaches.

In fact, before posting here, my original impression of Baha'i teachings was more positive than it is now.

As I was milling around the house and it suddenly came to my mind that I need to say something to you. I felt guided by God, Holy Spirit, whatever you choose to call Him.

It appears to me that you allow other people to influence you such as on this forum, so that is why I felt compelled to post this passage to you. It is a very important passage so it is no small wonder that is on the first page of the second most holy book of the Baha'i Faith, The Kitáb-i-Íqán. You can blow it off if you want to, but I consider it my duty to post it to you.

“IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD, THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH.

No man shall attain the shores of the ocean of true understanding except he be detached from all that is in heaven and on earth. Sanctify your souls, O ye peoples of the world, that haply ye may attain that station which God hath destined for you and enter thus the tabernacle which, according to the dispensations of Providence, hath been raised in the firmament of the Bayán.

The essence of these words is this: they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly—their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth. They should put their trust in God, and, holding fast unto Him, follow in His way. Then will they be made worthy of the effulgent glories of the sun of divine knowledge and understanding, and become the recipients of a grace that is infinite and unseen, inasmuch as man can never hope to attain unto the knowledge of the All-Glorious, can never quaff from the stream of divine knowledge and wisdom, can never enter the abode of immortality, nor partake of the cup of divine nearness and favour, unless and until he ceases to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God and His Prophets.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 3-4

What it essentially says in bold italics at the end is that we will never discover the truth for ourselves if we use the words and deeds of other people as a "standard" by which to understand God and His Prophets. In other words, we cannot measure truth according to what other people say, think or do. Rather, Baha'u'llah has enjoined us to investigate the truth for ourselves.

Amen.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/index.html

 

[samtonga43]

They don't contradict the Qur'an, they only contradict your interpretation of some verses in the Qur'an.
Same with the Bible. They don't contradict the Bible, they only contradict the commonly held Christian interpretation of some verses in the Bible.

You got this the wrong way round. It is the Christian interpretation of some verses in the Bible which contradicts what the B man said.

 

[samtonga43]

It appears to me that you allow other people to influence you such as on this forum

I am pleased to see your first three words in the above sentence. It seems progress is being made.
However, I don't understand what you mean about "allowing other people to influence you".

Who are these other people?
What evidence do you have that I am being influenced?

You have said some strange things in these discussions, but this one really needs some explanation...
I look forward to some clarification.

 

[Trailblazer]

You got this the wrong way round. It is the Christian interpretation of some verses in the Bible which contradicts what the B man said.

It does, but so what?

 

[Trailblazer]

I am pleased to see your first three words in the above sentence. It seems progress is being made.

Do you always have to have something negative to say about me? Progress is being made insinuates that I need to make progress.
Do I say things like that to you? I might think certain things bot that is not the same as saying them

Do you preface everything you say with "It appears to me?"
The very day that everyone on this forum prefaces what they say with "It appears to me" will be the day I do the same.
That is called equity.

“Tell, O ‘Alí, the loved ones of God that equity is the most fundamental among human virtues. The evaluation of all things must needs depend upon it.” Gleanings, p. 203

“Say: Observe equity in your judgment, ye men of understanding heart! He that is unjust in his judgment is destitute of the characteristics that distinguish man’s station.” Gleanings, p. 204

However, I don't understand what you mean about "allowing other people to influence you".

Who are these other people?
What evidence do you have that I am being influenced?

You have said some strange things in these discussions, but this one really needs some explanation...
I look forward to some clarification.

I do not KNOW if you are being influenced, only YOU know that. That is why I said "It appears to me that..."
The reason I thought that you might have been influenced from what is said on this forum is because you said the following:

"In fact, before posting here, my original impression of Baha'i teachings was more positive than it is now."

 

[CG Didymus]

Just because Baha'is love and revere the Bible and other Scriptures, that does not mean we have to take them literally. Not even all Christians interpret the Bible literally so why should Baha'is?

It's a different thing to take it as the literal Word of God and to try and do as it says, rather than "say" that a person loves and reveres it. There's so many things in the Bible and the gospels that don't sound like they could possibly have really happened. Once a person starts making things "allegorical", what is there that is really left? Taking it as a fictional, inspirational book is alright I guess. But how "inspirational" are all the stories of God killing people, including his chosen people? To me, fictional myth works very well to explain it away.

Calling some of it allegorical is also a way to not have to believe in some of the stories, but to the Jewish people 2000 years ago, if God only "allegorically" saved them from Pharaoh's army it's not too impressive. If God only "allegorically" flooded the whole world and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, then what good is that? Those acts of God are fictional and maybe their God is fictional too. But, if literal, and their ancestors witnessed these things, as the Bible says, then they have a type of proof that God does reward them when they do good and obey. But brings punishments to them when they disobey. And I think that is the grander lesson of those stories. Obey... get rewarded. Disobey and get yourself smote. But then once a person starts taking all those stories as being fictional, why fear or even believe in that God?

 

[CG Didymus]

The magenta above simply means that Jesus never died on the Cross in the first place. Jesus was injured but was the same person as before he was put on the Cross and tortured.
Jesus was secretive as he was afraid to be caught again and killed by the Jews. It is so simple. Why make it difficult, please?
Isn't it selfish of the Pauline-mythical/Christianity that they want to see Jesus dead only for the atonement of their sins, please?
Right?

Regards

Well I don't know. We have born-again Christians that need Jesus to have died on the cross so he could be raised from the dead. Baha'is need him to have died on the cross and rose only in spirit. In Islam he didn't die, but then what? Do you believe that he came to the apostles after? And what about him appearing and disappearing? Those things were just written in, but didn't really happen?

But that's another thing, the atonement, him having to die to pay the penalty for the inherited sin caused by Adam's fall. Baha'is don't need nor want it. What does Islam do with it?

 

[CG Didymus]

I can only say investigate for yourself as much as possible. Don't just take my word for it.

And that's what I do, but it's always nice to hear your opinions and interpretations.

 

[CG Didymus]

The part where He did things that were superhuman.

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

Too bad Jesus didn't do a little writing.