Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Trailblazer]

What the stories said speaks for themselves. Think about the implications yourself. I won't be a baby sitter for you and explain what they mean myself.

And the difference is that we know Baha'u'llah did these things because it is modern recorded history. By contrast, how can we ever know that Jesus did everything it says He did in the NT? Yet people still believe He did them.

But for most people, the evidence for Baha'u'llah is never enough.

 

[firedragon]

And the difference is that we know Baha'u'llah did these things because it is modern recorded history. By contrast, how can we ever know that Jesus did everything it says He did in the NT? Yet people still believe He did them.

But for most people, the evidence for Baha'u'llah is never enough.

Aren't you in this post contradicting with Abdul Baha? Or maybe even Bahaullah himself? If we never know what Jesus did, how could you reconcile that level of ignorance with positive statements in your own scripture or literature?

 

[firedragon]

He revealed the Book of Certitude in two days

How do you know?

 

[Trailblazer]

Aren't you in this post contradicting with Abdul Baha? Or maybe even Bahaullah himself? If we never know what Jesus did, how could you reconcile that level of ignorance with positive statements in your own scripture or literature?

What I meant was that we cannot know if Jesus really did all the miracles that are attributed to Him. That does not mean we cannot know anything that Jesus did.

 

[Aupmanyav]

He was cast into prison in Akka, Israel, and in a couple of years the authorities in Akka allowed Him to leave the prison, though He was supposed to be in prison for life with no contact with anyone. After nine years the leading cleric in Akka got on his knees and for a long period begged Baha'u'llah to leave Akka. Baha'u'llah left Akka, with no one trying to stop Him, though the imprisonment decree was still in effect.

People who came into the presence of Baha'u'llah very often were overwhelmed and unable to speak, including people who when they met Him didn't believe in Him.

The Ottomans and Russians had been competing Iran in the Caucasian region (Ottoman–Iranian War of 1821–1823, Russo-Persian War (1826–1828) - Wikipedia, the fifth). The ambassador of Russia requested that Baháʼu'lláh and other persons apparently unconnected with the conspiracy be spared. "Declining an offer of refugee status in Russia, he chose exile in Iraq (then part of the Ottoman Empire) ..". Bahaollah was released at the request of one enemy or Iran and migrated to another enemy of Iran. Bahaollah was confined to barracks (that is different from being in jail) in Acre in 1868 and till 1871 was not permitted to leave. After the death of Turkish Sultan (Abdulaziz) in 1876, "Baháʼu'lláh was allowed to leave the city and visit nearby places." It is not that Bahaollah suffered some untold miseries. He was there with his three wives, 14 children and followers. (Quotes from Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia)

There is no mention of any head-cleric going down on his knees to request Bahaollah to go away. Can you think of any sane reason why a Muslim head-cleric (perhaps a Sunni as they predominate in that region) will go down on his knees before a Murtad (renegade) who commited riddah (apostasy)? That is not done and it is prohibited in Islam.

"Al-Tirmidhi (2728) narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: A man said: O Messenger of Allaah, when one of us meets his brother or friend, should he bow to him? He said: “No.” He said: Should he embrace him and kiss him? He said: “No.” He said: Should he shake hands with him? He said: “Yes.” Classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi."
Same goes for tilting the head out of respect.
It is haram to bow down to someone. But is it haram to bow in martial arts, out of respect, not submission or worship? And in Japan, where they bow about practically everything? - Quora

Acre prison barracks; After leaving Acre, Bahaollah lived in this house in the coastal town of Mazra'a (in Arabic, it means a farm).

Well, there are always impressionable people who get awed in the presence of famous people.

What the stories said speaks for themselves. Think about the implications yourself.

Stories are stories and they can be made to speak anything.

 

[Tiberius]

The part where He did things that were superhuman.

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

Writing words, no matter how poetic they are, not how fast they were written, is not a superhuman accomplishment. There are many skilled authors today who have achieved great acclaim and who are extremely prolific in their writings, but that does not mean they are likewise sent by God.

 

[Tiberius]

What the stories said speaks for themselves. Think about the implications yourself. I won't be a baby sitter for you and explain what they mean myself.

I don't take homework assignments from you. If you can't clearly explain what you mean, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And the difference is that we know Baha'u'llah did these things because it is modern recorded history. By contrast, how can we ever know that Jesus did everything it says He did in the NT? Yet people still believe He did them.
But for most people, the evidence for Baha'u'llah is never enough.

Well, I do not believe in stories about any one of them, whether Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Bahaollah or Mirza Gholam Ahmad. (For that matter, I do not even believe that Gita was written 5000 years ago by Krishna).

 

[Trailblazer]

Writing words, no matter how poetic they are, not how fast they were written, is not a superhuman accomplishment. There are many skilled authors today who have achieved great acclaim and who are extremely prolific in their writings, but that does not mean they are likewise sent by God.

No, there is nobody who ever wrote as much as rapidly as Baha'u'llah. You can believe whatever you want to about that and you will.

 

[samtonga43]

I have one question. Why did that cleric in Akka beg Baha'u'llah to leave the prison?

Because he wanted the B.man to see the trees and the oranges.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't take homework assignments from you. If you can't clearly explain what you mean, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

@Truthseeker9 can explain what he means but he cannot explain what the stories mean to you.
That is why he said "I won't be a baby sitter for you and explain what they mean myself."

 

[firedragon]

What I meant was that we cannot know if Jesus really did all the miracles that are attributed to Him. That does not mean we cannot know anything that Jesus did.

SEE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A method then. Whats your method? Arbitrary?

 

[Trailblazer]

SEE, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A method then. Whats your method? Arbitrary?

Method of knowing what Jesus did? My method is not arbitrary. I believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote that Jesus did.

 

[firedragon]

Method of knowing what Jesus did? My method is not arbitrary. I believe what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote that Jesus did.

So basically its "because they saY so". But they contradict the Quran, and use what ever is convenient for them from the bible . Thats no method.

 

[samtonga43]

The part where He did things that were superhuman.

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

A man saw another man writing quickly and liked what he wrote. And so this must be 'superhuman'?

This explains a lot about your idea of 'evidence'.

Edit to say I have just noticed that this point has already been already made.

 

[samtonga43]

@Truthseeker9 can explain what he means but he cannot explain what the stories mean to you.
That is why he said "I won't be a baby sitter for you and explain what they mean myself."

If he can explain what he means, why doesn't he?

 

[samtonga43]

No, there is nobody who ever wrote as much as rapidly as Baha'u'llah. You can believe whatever you want to about that and you will.

Don't be silly, Tb. You cannot possibly know this.

 

[firedragon]

A man saw another man writing quickly and liked what he wrote. And so this must be 'superhuman'?

Thats not the important factor. The important factor is

1. Who is this man who saw?
2. What is his background? Is he a liar? Is he good with memory? Did he see clearly? Did he actually live during that time? Is he vouched for by others? How many others? Are they all reliable? What is their background?
3. Who narrated his narration from him to who? How is his background just like point 2 above?
4. Apply that to every one who narrated this.

At least, that's a beginning of this story. Just the beginning.

 

[samtonga43]

How polite is it for people to keep asking me for evidence I don't have after I have said numerous times I don't have that kind of evidence? Are they hoping I am going to give them something I don't have? If not, why keep asking?

If you have no evidence, why do you continually make statements that require evidence if they are to be believed?
You don't care if these statements are not believed?
So why waste your time, which, from what you say, may be better spent dealing with more important areas of your life?

 

[samtonga43]

Thats not the important factor. The important factor is

1. Who is this man who saw?
2. What is his background? Is he a liar? Is he good with memory? Did he see clearly? Did he actually live during that time? Is he vouched for by others? How many others? Are they all reliable? What is their background?
3. Who narrated his narration from him to who? How is his background just like point 2 above?
4. Apply that to every one who narrated this.

At least, that's a beginning of this story. Just the beginning.

Exactly.