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catholics, orthodox, and protestants: can you explain the trinity?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. and the Word was with God, & The Word became flesh

Thank you for your reply.
Yes, the 'Word' was ' with ' someone. Someone in the beginning and that Someone was his God.
When we are ' with ' our father we are Not our father but are two separate persons.
According to Psalm 90:2 God had No beginning: meaning God was 'before ' anything else.
So, for Jesus to be " IN " the beginning shows Jesus was Not 'before' the beginning as his God was.
When God sent His pre-human heavenly Son to Earth for us is when Jesus became flesh ( fleshly birth on Earth )
The same Greek grammar rule applies at both: John 1 and Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
The letter ' a ' we find inserted at Acts 28:6 in front of the word god but the 'a' omitted at John 1 (Not consistent)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.
URAVIP2ME God is perfect! If God was NOT perfect he would not be God!
Same with Jesus... Jesus cannot sin .. If Jesus did sin he would NOT be perfect he would not be God! ADAM....
URAVIP2ME
Adam the first perfect man sinned! He freely with "Free Will" chose to sin! Adam disobeyed God, Adam did not love God, we know this because; keeping God' commands is love for God!
1 John 3:24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
God COMMANDED Adam not to eat!! 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of... etc..
URAVIP2ME..... Adam did not love God! So Adam was removed from heaven only those who love can enter, Adam made a choice to "SIN"!!
Jesus rose from the dead because he was sinless..... "The wages of sin is death!" Jesus could not be held by death: Jesus rose from death sinless! YOU CAN'T....
URAVIP2ME
you can't even kill a stinking no good mangy dog twice to each is allowed only ONE death! Jesus died his one time.. Jesus has been there and done that! Jesus lives forever NEVER EVER to die again... WHAT....
URAVIP2ME
what we have to do is get ourselves IMMERSED into the can't die body of Jesus! All Immersed (baptized) into the Holy Body of Jesus will also live forever! Baptism ADDS us the the Body of Jesus...
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
URAVIP2ME 3000 were ADDED to the Holy Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost... By baptism!
URAVIP2ME Baptism ADDS us to the can't die body of Jesus; communion KEEPS US IN the living forever body of Jesus!
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

I find the setting or time frame for John 6:53 takes place a year or so 'before' the Last Supper.
This means: those crowds knew nothing at that time about the coming New covenant.
At John 6:35 Jesus likens himself to the ' bread of life ' ( bread of course being a blood-less eatable )
Blood-less as Manna was, but Jesus (flesh) would be the Superior Manna.
( Jesus was also: a figurative door, lamp, vine, shepherd, Cornerstone, bridegroom.....)
At John 6:38-40 please notice that Jesus stresses the doing of God's Will. There Jesus connects God's will with believing, and belief is connected with labor or the work of God as mentioned at John 6:27-29.
So, Not to work for the food (Manna) that perishes, but for Jesus the figurative 'bread of life'.
Hebrews 9:24-26 explains Jesus' ransom sacrifice is Not that he should offer himself often, but now once, and once to die - Hebrews 10:12-14 - again shows once and one sacrifice, only one offering, only one singular offering.
'Once' would Not make Jesus an endless supply of blood like a reservoir to be tapped into like a blood bank.
We find at Matthew 13:34 Jesus would Not address the crowds without a parable illustration, so that means the verses in John chapter 6 are figurative as John 6:35 ; John 6:40 shows. So, John chapter 6 is illustrative.
The reason those Jews found Jesus' words so repulsive was because of Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10.
They were forbidden to consume blood and flesh. Cannibalism was repulsive to them - 2 Kings 6:26-31.
There never was the use of flesh and blood used at baptism, but water.

Yes, the God of Jesus resurrected sinless Jesus because Jesus died a faithful Hero's death for us.
This is why God granted Jesus to have 'life in himself ' (John 5:26)
In other words,God resurrecting Jesus shows us that God granted immortality then to Son Jesus.
If Jesus could Not sin, then Satan would Not have tempted him.
Each person (human or spirit) is drawn out by one's own desires - James 1:13-15
Satan started out perfectly sinless, and so did Adam, they chose to disobey God. Jesus had that same choice.

Yes, Jesus' New Commandment (John 13:34-35) is Not burdensome.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, the 'Word' was ' with ' someone. Someone in the beginning and that Someone was his God.
When we are ' with ' our father we are Not our father but are two separate persons.
According to Psalm 90:2 God had No beginning: meaning God was 'before ' anything else.
So, for Jesus to be " IN " the beginning shows Jesus was Not 'before' the beginning as his God was.
When God sent His pre-human heavenly Son to Earth for us is when Jesus became flesh ( fleshly birth on Earth )
The same Greek grammar rule applies at both: John 1 and Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
The letter ' a ' we find inserted at Acts 28:6 in front of the word god but the 'a' omitted at John 1 (Not consistent)
.
I reply: Yes the Word became flesh, the word is the creator!
The "Word was God"!
You are leaning on semantics to make your point!
The scriptures tell you "The word made everything!" John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The word created all things! Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
Psalm 89:47 Remember how fleeting is my life. For what futility you have created all humanity!

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I find the setting or time frame for John 6:53 takes place a year or so 'before' the Last Supper.
This means: those crowds knew nothing at that time about the coming New covenant.
At John 6:35 Jesus likens himself to the ' bread of life ' ( bread of course being a blood-less eatable )
Blood-less as Manna was, but Jesus (flesh) would be the Superior Manna.
( Jesus was also: a figurative door, lamp, vine, shepherd, Cornerstone, bridegroom.....)
At John 6:38-40 please notice that Jesus stresses the doing of God's Will. There Jesus connects God's will with believing, and belief is connected with labor or the work of God as mentioned at John 6:27-29.
So, Not to work for the food (Manna) that perishes, but for Jesus the figurative 'bread of life'.
Hebrews 9:24-26 explains Jesus' ransom sacrifice is Not that he should offer himself often, but now once, and once to die - Hebrews 10:12-14 - again shows once and one sacrifice, only one offering, only one singular offering.
'Once' would Not make Jesus an endless supply of blood like a reservoir to be tapped into like a blood bank.
We find at Matthew 13:34 Jesus would Not address the crowds without a parable illustration, so that means the verses in John chapter 6 are figurative as John 6:35 ; John 6:40 shows. So, John chapter 6 is illustrative.
The reason those Jews found Jesus' words so repulsive was because of Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10.
They were forbidden to consume blood and flesh. Cannibalism was repulsive to them - 2 Kings 6:26-31.
There never was the use of flesh and blood used at baptism, but water.

Yes, the God of Jesus resurrected sinless Jesus because Jesus died a faithful Hero's death for us.
This is why God granted Jesus to have 'life in himself ' (John 5:26)
In other words,God resurrecting Jesus shows us that God granted immortality then to Son Jesus.
If Jesus could Not sin, then Satan would Not have tempted him.
Each person (human or spirit) is drawn out by one's own desires - James 1:13-15
Satan started out perfectly sinless, and so did Adam, they chose to disobey God. Jesus had that same choice.

Yes, Jesus' New Commandment (John 13:34-35) is Not burdensome.

I reply you have a lot of opinion! Jews are NOT Christian; Christians have always eaten the flesh of Jesus!
URAVIP2ME Jesus lets them that disagree with eating his flesh leave in their unbelief! Jesus does NOT call them back! Jesus does NOT say "I did not mean what I just told you, don't go It was only symbolic flesh you are to eat!" NO....

URAVIP2ME no Jesus lets them leave him in their unbelief; in fact Jesus turns to the Apostles and asks them if they also will leave him!
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve
.

FACT: Jesus is a unblemished Lamb! They did not break his legs! Jesus is the NEW Passover Lamb!
1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

URAVIP2ME ALL Passover sacrifices MUST be eaten!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.
I reply: Yes the Word became flesh, the word is the creator!
The "Word was God"!
You are leaning on semantics to make your point!
The scriptures tell you "The word made everything!" John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
The word created all things! Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made
Psalm 89:47 Remember how fleeting is my life. For what futility you have created all humanity!
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I find if you continue reading from verse one down to John 1:18 we read that No man (humans) has seen God.
People saw Jesus. See also John 6:46 beside what John wrote at 1 John 4:12 - No one has seen God.....

Yes, through Jesus because Jesus is part of the "us" of Genesis 1:26.
God is Not first born over all creation. God had No beginning according to Psalm 90:2
So, only God was ' before' creation, whereas Jesus was "in" the beginning but Not 'before' the beginning.
At Revelation 4:11 who does Jesus give the creation credit to but to his God__________

The same Greek grammar rule applies to both John 1 and Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
Translators inserted the letter "a" at Acts but omitted the letter "a" at John.
Thus, Jesus was "a" God ' Mighty God ' but Not Almighty God.

Who was at the Father's side (bosom position) according to John 1:18______________
At Revelation 3:21 who sits with Jesus on his throne, and who sits with Jesus' Father throne ___________
I find one person does Not sit on two thrones, nor do three persons sit on one throne.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I find if you continue reading from verse one down to John 1:18 we read that No man (humans) has seen God.
People saw Jesus. See also John 6:46 beside what John wrote at 1 John 4:12 - No one has seen God.....

Yes, through Jesus because Jesus is part of the "us" of Genesis 1:26.
God is Not first born over all creation. God had No beginning according to Psalm 90:2
So, only God was ' before' creation, whereas Jesus was "in" the beginning but Not 'before' the beginning.
At Revelation 4:11 who does Jesus give the creation credit to but to his God__________

The same Greek grammar rule applies to both John 1 and Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
Translators inserted the letter "a" at Acts but omitted the letter "a" at John.
Thus, Jesus was "a" God ' Mighty God ' but Not Almighty God.

Who was at the Father's side (bosom position) according to John 1:18______________
At Revelation 3:21 who sits with Jesus on his throne, and who sits with Jesus' Father throne ___________
I find one person does Not sit on two thrones, nor do three persons sit on one throne.

Hello... URAVIP2ME... God is love! God cannot love himself that is NOT love!
To love you MUSTY give of yourself to another! Tell me Who was there for God to GIVE TO if there was only one!?
For God to love he needs TWO!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,..... and the Word was with God, ......and the Word was God

In the beginning was the Word,
... You said it yourself... God was in the beginning!
URAVIP2ME Question.. Who was in the beginning?

and the Word was with God, .. Do you see it? Two.. The Word & God were together...Was with God!
URAVIP2ME Question..,. Who was with God?.... Who was in the beginning?

and the Word was God.... The WORD WAS GOD!
URAVIP2ME Question..... Who was the word?

URAVIP2ME God became Flesh and lived among us!
Again.. One more time... To have perfect love YOU NEED TWO PERSONS! Two together make perfect love.. ONE (1) person cannot love! One person cannot love except them self; that is called selfishness... NOT love!
URAVIP2ME God is perfect! To be perfect he needs another to love!
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus does not appear in the old testament
The Trinity as taught by the Trinitarian churches does not appear in either the old or the new testament. However the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are mentioned individually.

Such links and connections, that have been made, are tenuous in the extreme, such as to be invisible.

I believe the Messiah is mentioned and Jesus said He is.

I believe the fact that all three are God, is the unifying concept. And we have the statement of Jesus: "I and my Father are one."
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No-one has ever suggest man has has..
No one knows how creation was achieved.
However all life on earth has been subject to evolution to arrive at the flora and fauna that exists today.

I believe there is a lot slip between the cup and the lip. Things do change. Proving where a change came from is not so easy. And some claims of changes are totally irrational and not provable.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe the Messiah is mentioned and Jesus said He is.

I believe the fact that all three are God, is the unifying concept. And we have the statement of Jesus: "I and my Father are one."
Well, and that's the big question: was Jesus the messiah? Did he fulfill all the prophecies in the Tanakh? The answer is clearly no. He did not i.e. usher in an era of world peace, or bring all the Jews back to the Promised Land, or rule from Jerusalem... Heck I only needed to provide you with one prophecy he didn't fulfill to prove he is not the messiah, and I've given you three.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Hello Meandflower good to meet you.
First thing to consider is.. "God is perfect"! God does all things perfectly, if he did not then he would not be perfect he would NOT be God!

Second thing is: "God is Love" the scriptures tell you in a few places "God is Love"! Perfect love says.. "You cannot love yourself!" Love of self is called "Selfishness!"
To love: You >>MUST<< let go of self; you >>MUST<< give of your self at your own expense to another person! Read Matthew 25 those who go to heaven are righteous they "Do Right"! They "GIVE" a cup of water to a child, they visit the sick.. etc! Basically it is giving of your "Time, Talent and Treasure!

Third: For God to love perfectly he needs another to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is ONE God needs a second person to love to give himself too! IF....

Meandflower
if there is perfect love, there is two persons; for all time God has had another to love or he would not be perfect, he would NOT be God!
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
.
Your explanation is wrong, this is because you wrote " to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is ONE "

What you desribe is tritheism. A christian heresy. According to the christian faith it is forbidden to say or believe God is more than one God.

According to the offical trinity God is only one. God is one because God is only one Being. God is one being shared by three persons.

But if you had written " to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is only one person" then you had described the trinity in a very good way.
 
Last edited:

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Well, and that's the big question: was Jesus the messiah? Did he fulfill all the prophecies in the Tanakh? The answer is clearly no. He did not i.e. usher in an era of world peace, or bring all the Jews back to the Promised Land, or rule from Jerusalem... Heck I only needed to provide you with one prophecy he didn't fulfill to prove he is not the messiah, and I've given you three.
According to christians Jesus fullfilled enough prophecies in the Tanakh, and they believe Jesus is the Messiah.

But according to Jews Jesus did not fullfill enough prophecies in the Tanakh, and they do not believe Jesus is the Messiah.

It is a matter of which belief a person has.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, and that's the big question: was Jesus the messiah? Did he fulfill all the prophecies in the Tanakh? The answer is clearly no
Agreed. Thomas Aquinas said that if one took a literalistic position, Jesus being the "Messiah" was not possible, but then Aquinas [nor I] was a literalist.

BTW, just for the record, I really don't much get into this "Messiah" thingy as I tend to think it was based mostly on wishful thinking-- "Deus ex machina".
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Your explanation is wrong, this is because you wrote " to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is ONE "

What you desribe is tritheism. A christian heresy. According to the christian faith it is forbidden to say or believe God is more than one God.

According to the offical trinity God is only one. God is one because God is only one Being. God is one being shared by three persons.

But if you had written " to love! God cannot have perfect love if he is only one person" then you had described the trinity in a very good way.
.
Meandflower hello.. I hope all is well..
I reply: Thank you for the informative post... I think you got the meat of my post... I might have errored in presentation the point is... "Love of self is not perfect love!" Thus it is written..
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

I add...

Perfect love creates! The love of the Father for the Son (Word) and the love of the Word for the Father is perfect! It would NOT be perfect love if there was no fruit coming from the Perfect love! IF....

Meandflower
if there is perfect love then there must be results or fruit or creation or new life! (take your pick) thus if there is a perfect God (and there is) then there must be two so the perfect God can be perfect! If there is a perfect God (and there is) then there must be results / growth coming from this perfect love!
Perfect love is not sterile it produces, it creates thus the Holy Spirit comes into being!

Meandflower from this logical conclusion (above) if there is a perfect God (and there is) then there must be three (3) The Father, The Word and the Result of their perfect love.. The Holy Spirit!

THE...

Meandflower
the very split second there was a God (there always was a God just making it simpler to grasp) there was three (3) there had to be three because "God is Perfect God is Love"!!
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Hello... URAVIP2ME... God is love! God cannot love himself that is NOT love!
To love you MUSTY give of yourself to another! Tell me Who was there for God to GIVE TO if there was only one!?
For God to love he needs TWO!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,..... and the Word was with God, ......and the Word was God
In the beginning was the Word,
... You said it yourself... God was in the beginning!
URAVIP2ME Question.. Who was in the beginning?
and the Word was with God, .. Do you see it? Two.. The Word & God were together...Was with God!
URAVIP2ME Question..,. Who was with God?.... Who was in the beginning?
and the Word was God.... The WORD WAS GOD!
URAVIP2ME Question..... Who was the word? ......................!

If God does Not love Himself, that means to me 1 John 4:8 would be wrong because it says: " God "IS" love ".
Yes, God was in the beginning and also as Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting or BEFORE the beginning.
No Scripture says Jesus was BEFORE the beginning.
Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God according to Revelation 3:14 B.
Who does Jesus say is worthy as the Creator of all things according to Jesus at Revelation 4:11 ________
Who does Jesus say as to who should be worshipped at John 4:23-24_________
How many people have seen God according to John 1:18 __________, but people saw Jesus.
So, yes, Jesus was God's 'Spokesman' (Word) because Jesus does nothing of himself as per John 5:19.
I find there are two (2) Lords mentioned at Psalms 110. - Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35
One God 'the Father' and one Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.
Who was the One who resurrected dead Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 2:24,32_______
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
.
.................... I think you got the meat of my post... I might have errored in presentation the point is... "Love of self is not perfect love!" Thus it is written..
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.....................!

I would like to take the liberty to reply that yes Jesus was with God "IN" the beginning but Not BEFORE the beginning.
Only God is from everlasting or BEFORE the beginning according to Psalms 90:2.
So, Jesus was "IN" the beginning but Not BEFORE the beginning as his God was - Revelation 4:11.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
According to the offical trinity God is only one. God is one because God is only one Being. God is one being shared by three persons..............
How can a neuter "IT" be a person because God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is a neuter 'it' .
- Please see Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 (it)
Some versions have taken the liberty to change ' it ' to he or him but that does Not make a neuter 'it' a person.
Just as in English we call a car or a ship as a 'she' but that does not make the neuter car or ship a person.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
If God does Not love Himself, that means to me 1 John 4:8 would be wrong because it says: " God "IS" love ".
Yes, God was in the beginning and also as Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting or BEFORE the beginning.
No Scripture says Jesus was BEFORE the beginning.
Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God according to Revelation 3:14 B.
Who does Jesus say is worthy as the Creator of all things according to Jesus at Revelation 4:11 ________
Who does Jesus say as to who should be worshipped at John 4:23-24_________
How many people have seen God according to John 1:18 __________, but people saw Jesus.
So, yes, Jesus was God's 'Spokesman' (Word) because Jesus does nothing of himself as per John 5:19.
I find there are two (2) Lords mentioned at Psalms 110. - Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35
One God 'the Father' and one Lord according to 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.
Who was the One who resurrected dead Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 2:24,32_______
.
URAVIP2ME You have lots of questions...
Fact is... God is PERFECT God cannot love himself to be PERFECT he MUST have another to Love! God would NOT be God if he was NOT perfect!

God had another to LOVE or he would not be God. God had another to LOVE or he would not be Perfect!
If there is a God (and there Is) then there is always two ...two... two not just one! God would not be God without TWO!
In the beginning was God.. The Father & The Word!

The WORD was GOD!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

God became MAN and live among us!
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
URAVIP2ME the Word was God
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
......In the beginning was God.. The Father & The Word!
The WORD was GOD!
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
God became MAN and live among us!
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
URAVIP2ME the Word was God

And who sent the Word to us from heaven__________
Without using John 1 what other verses is John using to say Jesus is God or God Jesus __________
 
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