Christian Evolutionist debate (using scripture)

[TheWingMan]

First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

 

[Rival]

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith?

The same faith Noach, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and everyone else in the book of Bereschit had.

Are you intending this only for Christians?

 

[TheWingMan]

The same faith Noach, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and everyone else in the book of Bereschit had.

Are you intending this only for Christians?

Open to anyone Rival - I'd prefer it. I'm limited to the Bible for reference, so you'll likely be a welcomed addition to the thread ... given your statement. Thanks.

 

[Rival]

Open to anyone Rival - I'd prefer it. I'm limited to the Bible for reference, so you'll likely be a welcomed addition to the thread ... given your statement. Thanks.

I was just pointing out (slightly pointedly) that none of the Patriarchs had any scripture. Nor did the early Christians have any scriptures of their own, only oral traditions about Jesus. So I think the total reliance on scripture is ironically unbiblical.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

I, too, feel like I'm the only person who really gets it. Always have. Its a feature not a bug, right?

Without scripture we wouldn't know much about Judaism, but Christian scriptures declare God can speak through any medium to any group without limitation. There is no guidance which God follows, nor is there a scripture to determine what is or isn't scripture. "All scripture" includes some very wacky stuff such as the book of Enoch referenced in the canonical book Jude. You've never read anything so wacky. As Jesus is quoted to say "Destroy this temple and I'll raise it in three days." The gospel writer says its about his body, but there are other implications. He is remaking Judaism, just as was once threatened to Moses. Moses was told "I'm tired of these people and am starting over with you!" One of the great symbols of Judaism is the seed which dies to bring life. Death is part of the process of making life. Were Judaism to vanish and Christianity and all other religions, new ones would appear which would also be inspired by God. Actually you can find much inspiration in Hindu groups, in Japan far from here, in ancient indigenous groups of the Americas and of Australia and Africa. There is much inspiration, enough to start again should it be necessary.

I think "I am the way the truth and the life" speaks of the logos, the message, the commandment to love one another.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

"Iron sharpens iron" isn't about comparing scriptural penis sizes. I think its something which cannot happen in any impersonal forum such as ours but is a personal thing. You put up with other people and also encourage them, and they do the same for you. They help rub off your burrs, help identify where you are selfish and quarrelsome; so you can reform. They also can strengthen and inspire.

Evolution, yes. It happened and is happening. I agree there.

 

[Windwalker]

First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

There are many who use scripture to inform their faith, and their understandings of scripture varies. So it's not really scripture itself that is the basis of faith. Rather scripture is used by faith, which existed before reading scripture. People were Christians long before there was a collection of books written and compiled later into our books of the NT.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Why? Is it to prove who's right and who's wrong, as if there is only one right way to interpret scripture?

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

That is another way of saying in a more modern vernacular, "Blood is thicker than water". Kin stay with you, when friends and acquaintances flee in the face of your woes.

BTW, I thought this was going to be a debate about Christians who believe in evolution?

 

[F1fan]

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

Or rubbing iron against iron just creates friction and makes both pieces blunt.

 

[nPeace]

First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

First of all, WELCOME!
It's important to be sure one has a correct understand of what is actually stated, and this often involves having a good Bible translation.

If you look here, for example, you will notice a big difference in the way your translation statement reads, giving a completely different understanding.

 

[Brian2]

First things first:

Without the Scriptures, what basis would Christians have to practice their faith? I see many religious people, but very few who understand the faith as written in the Scriptures.

With that said, let Iron sharpen Iron here as we hash out scripture in attempt to both defend our own position and counter those positions which oppose them - using scripture

Let the honing begin with better understanding being the end in mind. Brothers are made for adversity.

Proverbs 17:17

Let's start with this one. Is there more to this verse than just friends loving at all times and brothers being made adversaries? Or is this about sharpening and increasing each other's ability and true friendship?

I would have thought it is about a friend and brother both being there to love and help.
As for evolution, Science helps us understand what the Bible means in places and it seems that
Genesis 1 shows the creation in embryo stage with changes coming later and over time.

 

[TheWingMan]

I was just pointing out (slightly pointedly) that none of the Patriarchs had any scripture. Nor did the early Christians have any scriptures of their own, only oral traditions about Jesus. So I think the total reliance on scripture is ironically unbiblical.

That's what I understood as well. Oral traditions that made their way in writing, then on to a compilation of writings/books now known as the Bible. It's not unbiblical to lean on the written texts. Nearly every Christian I've met does this much and/or their pastors. I recall reading that were required to study in order to show ourselves approved, which makes sense given the long oral history and effort to place it all in writing.

 

[TheWingMan]

I, too, feel like I'm the only person who really gets it. Always have. Its a feature not a bug, right?

Without scripture we wouldn't know much about Judaism, but Christian scriptures declare God can speak through any medium to any group without limitation. There is no guidance which God follows, nor is there a scripture to determine what is or isn't scripture. "All scripture" includes some very wacky stuff such as the book of Enoch referenced in the canonical book Jude. You've never read anything so wacky. As Jesus is quoted to say "Destroy this temple and I'll raise it in three days." The gospel writer says its about his body, but there are other implications. He is remaking Judaism, just as was once threatened to Moses. Moses was told "I'm tired of these people and am starting over with you!" One of the great symbols of Judaism is the seed which dies to bring life. Death is part of the process of making life. Were Judaism to vanish and Christianity and all other religions, new ones would appear which would also be inspired by God. Actually you can find much inspiration in Hindu groups, in Japan far from here, in ancient indigenous groups of the Americas and of Australia and Africa. There is much inspiration, enough to start again should it be necessary.

I think "I am the way the truth and the life" speaks of the logos, the message, the commandment to love one another.


"Iron sharpens iron" isn't about comparing scriptural penis sizes. I think its something which cannot happen in any impersonal forum such as ours but is a personal thing. You put up with other people and also encourage them, and they do the same for you. They help rub off your burrs, help identify where you are selfish and quarrelsome; so you can reform. They also can strengthen and inspire.

Evolution, yes. It happened and is happening. I agree there.

To address your first point: God speaks through everything. The "all things work together for the good of those who love God"passage rings a bell. I'm in agreement, but then who's God and how becomes the question to address. God is and we simply experience God being God as we are, no matter where or how or who we are.

Second point:The logos is more about expression and comunication. Everything communicates, but not everything or everyone understands the language being communated. Leaves turn yellow in the springtime ... the leaves are communicating a need.

Point three: Iron sharpening iron is more about understanding and increasing skill and ability. Hosea 4:6 speaks of knowledge or rather the lack of knowledge being our reason for destruction.

Evolution never ends. Iike you suggested it has been happening and is happening. That's the nature of everything ... change, which is the proper definition for repentance.

 

[TheWingMan]

There are many who use scripture to inform their faith, and their understandings of scripture varies. So it's not really scripture itself that is the basis of faith. Rather scripture is used by faith, which existed before reading scripture. People were Christians long before there was a collection of books written and compiled later into our books of the NT.


Why? Is it to prove who's right and who's wrong, as if there is only one right way to interpret scripture?


That is another way of saying in a more modern vernacular, "Blood is thicker than water". Kin stay with you, when friends and acquaintances flee in the face of your woes.

BTW, I thought this was going to be a debate about Christians who believe in evolution?

Windwalker ... I remember you from maybe 10 -15 years ago. I agree with your first point. Faith existed before scripture and our understanding of scripture varies and changes as we learn more about life.

Your second point seems a bit presumptuous. If you were a mechanic 30 years ago but hadn't worked on a vehicle since, a fellow mechanic (up to date) would help sharpen your skill and ability. The same principle applies in every area of life. Iron sharpening iron and brothers being born for adversity is relevant in this way. Ok, so the new guy knows and understands better, which may make him an adversary in that field, unless he's willing to help the old school mechanic with limited understanding of newer vehicles.

Evolutionary processes are already being discussed in this thread.

 

[TheWingMan]

First of all, WELCOME!
It's important to be sure one has a correct understand of what is actually stated, and this often involves having a good Bible translation.

If you look here, for example, you will notice a big difference in the way your translation statement reads, giving a completely different understanding.

I typically stick with the KJV, NASB, ESV, and the NIV. These four help with translation comparisons. Two literal, one dynamic, and the KJV which is almost always relevant.

 

[TheWingMan]

I would have thought it is about a friend and brother both being there to love and help.
As for evolution, Science helps us understand what the Bible means in places and it seems that
Genesis 1 shows the creation in embryo stage with changes coming later and over time.

Agreed

 

[Brickjectivity]

To address your first point: God speaks through everything. The "all things work together for the good of those who love God"passage rings a bell. I'm in agreement, but then who's God and how becomes the question to address. God is and we simply experience God being God as we are, no matter where or how or who we are.

Second point:The logos is more about expression and comunication. Everything communicates, but not everything or everyone understands the language being communated. Leaves turn yellow in the springtime ... the leaves are communicating a need.

Point three: Iron sharpening iron is more about understanding and increasing skill and ability. Hosea 4:6 speaks of knowledge or rather the lack of knowledge being our reason for destruction.

Evolution never ends. Iike you suggested it has been happening and is happening. That's the nature of everything ... change, which is the proper definition for repentance.

Thanks, interesting comment about logos. I went back and skimmed 1-4 of Hosea, and it is about rejection of knowledge. He says the people (at that time) reject knowledge, that the priests feed on and relish the sins of the people, the people stumble day and night and their prophets with them. The chapter 4 opens with what looks to me like a denunciation that they have broken the covenant of Noah, because in 4:3 it talks about a cataclysm of extinction. Those who had knowledge walked away. They didn't merely lack for it. They didn't want to be good and to do what they knew to do. The chapter opens by saying there is no faithfulness throughout the land.

 

[AlexanderG]

Does "Christian Evolutionist" mean a Christian who believes in the theory of evolution? I'm confused by this title because it doesn't seem related to anything in your OP.

I guess I'll pop in to make the oft-said point: If all Christian knowledge and belief and scripture were erased from humanity today, there would be no basis for "re-discovering" it. It would remain forgotten, like the many dead tribal religions that undoubtedly existed and died out before writing existed, because it is as ad hoc and baseless as the superstitious beliefs of any other religion. People would simply attribute coincidences, unknowns, and funny feelings to something else they could imagine.

If all knowledge of evolution were erased from humanity today, it would be re-discovered and verified probably within months, and would continue providing accurate future predictions about what we could expect to find in the fields of ecology, medicine, geology, genetics, and much more.

Scripture appears to be imaginary stories transmitted over time by cultural tradition, which do not in fact correspond to reality beyond mundane references to place names. Much like the existence of New York is not good evidence that Spiderman is real, so we would not expect Spiderman to be "re-discovered" if all knowledge of that story were erased from humanity.

Scripture is merely a cultural set of stories, like Spiderman. Culture is conceptual, subjective, and arbitrary. Science describes objective demonstrable reality. If you can find a scriptural interpretation to support evolution, that's fine, but reality will be the way it is either way; it doesn't require your interpretation to correspond to it.

 

[nPeace]

I typically stick with the KJV, NASB, ESV, and the NIV. These four help with translation comparisons. Two literal, one dynamic, and the KJV which is almost always relevant.

I guess it depends on one's preference, as there is disagreement on that.
However, did you mean to say "brothers being made adversaries?" Or did you rather mean to say "brothers "born for [during] a time of adversity" (NIV)?

 

[TheWingMan]

Thanks, interesting comment about logos. I went back and skimmed 1-4 of Hosea, and it is about rejection of knowledge. He says the people (at that time) reject knowledge, that the priests feed on and relish the sins of the people, the people stumble day and night and their prophets with them. The chapter 4 opens with what looks to me like a denunciation that they have broken the covenant of Noah, because in 4:3 it talks about a cataclysm of extinction. Those who had knowledge walked away. They didn't merely lack for it. They didn't want to be good and to do what they knew to do. The chapter opens by saying there is no faithfulness throughout the land.

I won't disagree. The same intent is applicable no matter. Thanks

 

[TheWingMan]

I guess it depends on one's preference, as there is disagreement on that.
However, did you mean to say "brothers being made adversaries?" Or did you rather mean to say "brother "born for [during] a time of adversity" (NIV)?

Both are applicable... born/made ... adversaries and/or for times of adversity. The implications have been addressed by me already. Thanks

 

[TheWingMan]

Does "Christian Evolutionist" mean a Christian who believes in the theory of evolution? I'm confused by this title because it doesn't seem related to anything in your OP.

I guess I'll pop in to make the oft-said point: If all Christian knowledge and belief and scripture were erased from humanity today, there would be no basis for "re-discovering" it. It would remain forgotten, like the many dead tribal religions that undoubtedly existed and died out before writing existed, because it is as ad hoc and baseless as the superstitious beliefs of any other religion. People would simply attribute coincidences, unknowns, and funny feelings to something else they could imagine.

If all knowledge of evolution were erased from humanity today, it would be re-discovered and verified probably within months, and would continue providing accurate future predictions about what we could expect to find in the fields of ecology, medicine, geology, genetics, and much more.

Scripture appears to be imaginary stories transmitted over time by cultural tradition, which do not in fact correspond to reality beyond mundane references to place names. Much like the existence of New York is not good evidence that Spiderman is real, so we would not expect Spiderman to be "re-discovered" if all knowledge of that story were erased from humanity.

Scripture is merely a cultural set of stories, like Spiderman. Culture is conceptual, subjective, and arbitrary. Science describes objective demonstrable reality. If you can find a scriptural interpretation to support evolution, that's fine, but reality will be the way it is either way; it doesn't require your interpretation to correspond to it.

I would disagree with your assessment on religion and how they came to be. Granted, we've come a good distance from then to now, and the sciences are infact a forerunner in our quest to better understand life and knowledge, but ... at one time religions filled the role of science, until we became more knowledgeable. With that said, most religious principles are still valid, and some ancient philosophies have proven to pave the way for the sciences... hermetic philosophy for example is much like a foundation in our evolutionary and scientific advancements.

As for the theory of evolution, yes I mostly agree with Darwin, but I'm not holding him infallible in theory. The same is true for every religious view. It's all a starting place for greater understanding, given you have the interest.