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Taliban

firedragon

Veteran Member
That really is the crux of it and it has no easy fix.

Example is that I really dislike the suppression of women, seeing it in any way really gets my goat up. :D I just want to run in and ram the perpetrators and I have the same feeling with injustice.

Regards Tony

This sentiment has been hit hard since I think the mid 90's. Even by some of the most fanatical Muslim groups.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well you and I would 100% agree on that, but we must consider that they see they do, no matter how distorted that view is.

Regards Tony

No they dont. Unless of course you can show some kind of Taliban document that quotes Quranic verses I will be interested in looking at it.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
These people must have a very different definition of peace to me.

One of the original reasons for the establishment of the Taliban was around issues of law and order. For some people, establishment of law and order equates to 'peace'.
It comes at the cost of freedom, in this case, and with genuinely harsh consequences for any who won't conform. Still, for some people the establishment of clear guidelines based on religious and tribal beliefs is justifiable, and the harshness of those laws shouldn't be judged through outsiders moral considerations. I'm not of that opinion, but I can see that some would view it that way.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
One of the original reasons for the establishment of the Taliban was around issues of law and order. For some people, establishment of law and order equates to 'peace'.
It comes at the cost of freedom, in this case, and with genuinely harsh consequences for any who won't conform. Still, for some people the establishment of clear guidelines based on religious and tribal beliefs is justifiable, and the harshness of those laws shouldn't be judged through outsiders moral considerations. I'm not of that opinion, but I can see that some would view it that way.
I do get this, it just seem a very odd use of the word given what's happening right now, I guess. I suppose one could call North Korea 'peaceful', but.... :sweatsmile:
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
One thing I had not thought about earlier. I was listening to KQED Forum while driving around where several Afghans who are in the USA were being interviewed.

One comment that struck me as accurate was that there was no real government there. I don't think the taliban were ready to take over, so fast was their advance.

One worked for the US government there.

He said first we need to understand that in Afghanistan, one's family is everyone in the house - parents, wife, children, brothers & sisters. So to them, getting the family out means all of them.

He also said he went through all sorts of checks, including biometric, before he was hired there. When he applied to come here, it took 2 years to get approval. He also said it can take 4 years for the sclerotic US bureaucracy to give approval.

One thing we should do is to destroy all the unneeded red tape that punishes 99% of the people waiting to avoid having one bad actor slip in.

The web page for that show noted another page about what Americans can do to help The Simple Steps You Can Take Right Now To Help Afghan Refugees

Just on this, worth noting it's not just the US.
Australia has done a horrendous job assisting Afghan nationals who helped our armed forces (interpreters, etc).
The worst thing is that the ADF (Australian Defence Force) itself does a lot of screening of these people, and on an on-going basis. You would think that would be enough for us to at least get them (and their familes, as noted above) out of the country, and we can finalize screening, etc, later.

Instead, we've been tardy, and this has not been expedited, much to the frustration and anger of some in the ADF, who feel let down by the government.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't believe this at all. Violent people can't produce peace. They produce evil, corruption, and more violence.
Now, if you want to prove me wrong, please move to Afghanistan, stay there for a couple of years, not as a Taliban but as a normal citizen. No weapons for you to defend yourself, no preferential treatment. If you're still alive in two years, please let me know how great that kind of peace was. I'd love to hear about your experience, but not from the comfort of your home sitting at a computer in a free country. Make sure you go there so you can be sure of what you're talking about.

This is a binary view of the world, and in reality things are much more problematic that this. Of course if all people were non-violent, then the world would be more peaceful.
Equally, though, we have used violence in the past to control anti-social behaviours, on a global scale (peace-keeping missions, for example) and on a local domestic basis, ranging down to day-to-day policing.

People seem to equate 'peace' with some ideal end state, but the OP wasn't talking about peace in a holistic sense (including of the mind) but rather a reduction in physical violence, sectarian fighting, and general violent crime levels (I believe). However, I should link in @firedragon in case I am misunderstanding.

In that context, though, it's ENTIRELY possible for violent people to produce peace. It comes at an extreme cost in other ways, of course, and we can freely judge if the juice is worth the squeeze (so to speak).
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
This is opinion.

There is an old Indian classic about a guy called Mahawshadha and his opposing kings adviser called Kewatta. There was a war, and the story about Kewatta's war strategy is famous. Some time ago there were two telecommunication companies in the U.S, Ma bell and AT&T. Ma Bell was a smaller company but they gathered their market following this same strategy. This is such a big story that even in marketing it can be adopted.

So Kewatta's strategy was to go to smaller kingdom, tell them that we will annihilate you if you dont submit to us and give us your power, but if you submit, you are not plundered and you are all good. You live, we are just a little more powerful. So they go on doing this with all the kingdoms in the region, one at a time. Small to big. If you understand this methodology, this is exactly what the Taliban did.

Can you blame the U.S and Biden for this ultimate aftermath? Not so sure about that. I think they had to leave eventually, some day. Blaming game or not, one has to acknowledge what took place on ground. In the country, the Taliban is known to bring peace and that's exactly what they did earlier after the Russian departure. They bring peace and stability, but not prosperity and freedom. This has been their legacy, and those people who thought the new Afghan regime were all good in terms of freedom, there was war, bombs here and there, and corruption everywhere. Thus, the peasant type's who yearned for stability and freedom put their hand in the left and right hands of the Taliban. Done and dusted. This will never mean freedom. Maybe to some, but not to all. This is very well known. The Taliban played their game very well and the rest of the world watched TV and made their own juices based on the cordial provided therein.

The conspiracies behind the Opium, the oil pipe, and the trillions spent on the drain are all super tools to use for pleasure, but none of these bring anything to fruition now.

Nevertheless, I would like to understand what you thing would be the next step. What can anyone do? I will truly appreciate your valuable insights and feedback.

Peace.


Teach the children Unconditional Love. Teach and show the children the Real Truth for one day, the children will grow up.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
People seem to equate 'peace' with some ideal end state, but the OP wasn't talking about peace in a holistic sense (including of the mind) but rather a reduction in physical violence, sectarian fighting, and general violent crime levels (I believe). However, I should link in @firedragon in case I am misunderstanding.

Taliban means students. They were a small bunch students who initially fought corruption. They rescued abused children. Famously they rescued an abducted child from a warlord type of guy. This was their beginning. They put an end to it with a very hard fist. I really dont know why but in the 90's this child abduction and rape was rampant. Looting and kidnap was everywhere and that we know why. No governance. The Taliban put an end to it within around two years if I am not off with the timelines. If that is not bringing peace to a land, I dont know what else is. ;)

Thats what I mean by peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Teach the children Unconditional Love. Teach and show the children the Real Truth for one day, the children will grow up.

Hmm. In some areas, you will find a child without a limb almost every where you go. Children in the village will play together, and every day they will see these kids with out a limb. Its been 20 years since the occupation, and most of the Taliban fighters will be young and were kids when the U.S bombed their parents. Where ever you go, someones someone would have been bombed. One guy was assassinated at a wedding, and around 500 people were killed with him. Why? Because it was a drone attack. So this is what they grew up with. The psychological effects on these human beings maybe, just maybe beyond repair. Even children. So when these children grow up, some would want to migrate to a western country, and the others would wish to remain. Some would remain out of no choice. But all of them will carry burdens you would never understand.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Taliban means students. They were a small bunch students who initially fought corruption. They rescued abused children. Famously they rescued an abducted child from a warlord type of guy. This was their beginning. They put an end to it with a very hard fist. I really dont know why but in the 90's this child abduction and rape was rampant. Looting and kidnap was everywhere and that we know why. No governance. The Taliban put an end to it within around two years if I am not off with the timelines. If that is not bringing peace to a land, I dont know what else is. ;)

Thats what I mean by peace.
Yes anarchy is one of the quicker paths to totalitarian subjugation.

No, subjugation is not equivalent to "peace".

In my opinion.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In my opinion what we really need is innovative ways of educating illiterate people.

Once people can read they can begin to communicate, and once they begin to communicate across distances they can learn better ways than oppression.

Improvement may take a long time, but I remain optimistic that for as long as we can educate people, improvement can be slowly attained.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
In my opinion what we really need is innovative ways of educating illiterate people.

Once people can read they can begin to communicate, and once they begin to communicate across distances they can learn better ways than oppression.

Improvement may take a long time, but I remain optimistic that for as long as we can educate people, improvement can be slowly attained.
We did manage to cut rates of FGM in Africa by teaching women about its effects, so I am actually hopeful at this in a small way.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Taliban means students. They were a small bunch students who initially fought corruption. They rescued abused children. Famously they rescued an abducted child from a warlord type of guy. This was their beginning. They put an end to it with a very hard fist. I really dont know why but in the 90's this child abduction and rape was rampant. Looting and kidnap was everywhere and that we know why. No governance. The Taliban put an end to it within around two years if I am not off with the timelines. If that is not bringing peace to a land, I dont know what else is. ;)

Thats what I mean by peace.


1) Knew about the Taliban meaning. I'm hoping this means their youthful ardor is now tempered to some small degree. Hopeful, rather than expecting.
2) Yup, that's about what I figured you meant. Some people in the thread seem to be talking about 'peace' as some sort of all inclusive concept which involves calmness, and love and whatever. But you mean it in the more pragmatic sense...an absence of violence, crime, etc. I've lived in a very dangerous place at one point, and I think some people might underestimate how much people in dangerous settings would be willing to sacrifice just to remove the fear of unexpected and unregulated violence from their communities.

This has been an interesting thread. Cheers!
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmm. In some areas, you will find a child without a limb almost every where you go. Children in the village will play together, and every day they will see these kids with out a limb. Its been 20 years since the occupation, and most of the Taliban fighters will be young and were kids when the U.S bombed their parents. Where ever you go, someones someone would have been bombed. One guy was assassinated at a wedding, and around 500 people were killed with him. Why? Because it was a drone attack. So this is what they grew up with. The psychological effects on these human beings maybe, just maybe beyond repair. Even children. So when these children grow up, some would want to migrate to a western country, and the others would wish to remain. Some would remain out of no choice. But all of them will carry burdens you would never understand.

Ooof...and it goes back further.
I can only imagine what some of the parents and grandparents went through during the Soviet occupation.
Not to mention what's commonly referred to as the Afghan Civil War in the power vacuum created by the Soviet withdrawal.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Can anyone explain to me, and possibly others, what Afghanistan was like pre-Soviet etc?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Can anyone explain to me, and possibly others, what Afghanistan was like pre-Soviet etc?

I mean...I could have a crack in an academic sense (never been there, basing it on my reading).
But I'll hold off a short while in case someone has a more personal understanding (plus it will take a while, and I've pretty much burned my break time now...lol)

Assuming you mean in a holistic sense? Politically, socially, etc?
 
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