The Left now says there's no such thing as a "woman"

[Earthtank]

You keep saying you're being forced to call people by their requested pronoun. You've used the word "force" many times on this thread.

Hence my question.

Let me clarify what I mean by "forced". If I met Bruce Jenner and he said "its Kate and refer to me only as a female", he is trying or "forcing me" (you can replace force with any word you want) to act, behave or speak in a manner I disagree with. Just because he requested does not mean I need to abide or accommodate that request. He made his position very clear, there is no need for that interaction to continue as we both have opposing views. That does not mean it has to turn into a dog fight, we can both be civil and go our separate ways. Simple as that.

 

[Meow Mix]

I wonder if racists think their bigotry is civil too? “Everything is kosher, when I tell them they can’t drink from the whites only fountain I do so in a very calm and respectable manner, we can then end our interaction there.”

It doesn’t require “agreeing” with trans issues to simply show human decency and not deadname or misgender people to their face.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Let me clarify what I mean by "forced". If I met Bruce Jenner and he said "its Kate and refer to me only as a female", he is trying or "forcing me" (you can replace force with any word you want) to act, behave or speak in a manner I disagree with. Just because he requested does not mean I need to abide or accommodate that request. He made his position very clear, there is no need for that interaction to continue as we both have opposing views. That does not mean it has to turn into a dog fight, we can both be civil and go our separate ways. Simple as that.

So, basically, you kind of don't want trans people in your life, is what you're saying? Or...?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let me clarify what I mean by "forced". If I met Bruce Jenner and he said "its Kate and refer to me only as a female", he is trying or "forcing me" (you can replace force with any word you want) to act, behave or speak in a manner I disagree with. Just because he requested does not mean I need to abide or accommodate that request. He made his position very clear, there is no need for that interaction to continue as we both have opposing views. That does not mean it has to turn into a dog fight, we can both be civil and go our separate ways. Simple as that.

Which brings us back to my question ...

 

[Earthtank]

So, basically, you kind of don't want trans people in your life, is what you're saying? Or...?

I don't want anyone who is going to try and "force" me to do anything I disagree with after I have clearly and respectfully stated my views and positions on any subject. I am glad to discuss those issues further with them but, if their ultimate goal is solely for me to comply and abide by their requests then, I have absolutely no problem cutting them off. Clear?

 

[Revoltingest]

It occurs to me that "the left" includes the PRC.
And they recognize a "manly woman".

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't want anyone who is going to try and "force" me to do anything I disagree with after I have clearly and respectfully stated my views and positions on any subject. I am glad to discuss those issues further with them but, if their ultimate goal is solely for me to comply and abide by their requests then, I have absolutely no problem cutting them off. Clear?

You can also do this (cut them off) without deliberately misgendering or deadnaming them to their face.

For instance, in Caitlyn Jenner’s case, you could have just spoken about her in neutral terms (just calling her Jenner; and wording your sentences in ways that avoided explicitly gendered pronouns).

But you didn’t do that: you made sure to deadname her and made sure to misgender her. It indicates that it’s a little more than not wanting to be “forced” to do something, there’s deliberate malicious intent there.

 

[Revoltingest]

...there’s deliberate malicious intent there.

"Malicious" is the effect, but perhaps not the intent.
For people who believe in a simple sex/gender reality,
they might be just enforcing adherence to what reality
should be.

 

[Meow Mix]

"Malicious" is the effect, but perhaps not the intent.
For people who believe in a simple sex/gender reality,
they might be just enforcing adherence to what reality
should be.

I’m not sure about that. For instance, I’ve talked to people about things I disagreed with, but for which I knew there was a significant emotional attachment to something. I knew I could respond in at least a couple different ways, and disagree without saying something particular that might cause them harm: I was cognizant of this, and it would have been malicious to throw what I knew would upset them in their face.

One can “disagree” with trans issues without deadnaming and misgendering; there are neutral ways to go about this. But transphobes seem like they always choose the “in your face” version of disagreement: being sure to deadname and misgender at every opportunity.

It’s not polite disagreement in such cases, it becomes malicious.

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m not sure about that. For instance, I’ve talked to people about things I disagreed with, but for which I knew there was a significant emotional attachment to something. I knew I could respond in at least a couple different ways, and disagree without saying something particular that might cause them harm: I was cognizant of this, and it would have been malicious to throw what I knew would upset them in their face.

One can “disagree” with trans issues without deadnaming and misgendering; there are neutral ways to go about this. But transphobes seem like they always choose the “in your face” version of disagreement: being sure to deadname and misgender at every opportunity.

It’s not polite disagreement in such cases, it becomes malicious.

I'm not sure either.
But the poster never elaborated on his views.
So I don't fully understand them.
Hard to get some questions answered, eh.

 

[Meow Mix]

For instance “disagreeing” with Caitlyn’s identity could have gone like this:

“I disagree with Jenner. I will not call them Caitlyn and I will not use their pronouns.”

Notice I didn’t have to deadname or misgender to accomplish “polite disagreement.”

 

[Revoltingest]

For instance “disagreeing” with Caitlyn’s identity could have gone like this:

“I disagree with Jenner. I will not call them Caitlyn and I will not use their pronouns.”

Notice I didn’t have to deadname or misgender to accomplish “polite disagreement.”

You seem obsessed with showing others civility & tolerance.
Stop that!

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

You seem obsessed with showing others civility & tolerance.
Stop that!

Haha.

Well I see it like this Revolting - naming transgender people properly is display of the Golden Rule as even if the original person who doesn't want to disagrees, they often don't want to be misgendered themselves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't want anyone who is going to try and "force" me to do anything I disagree with after I have clearly and respectfully stated my views and positions on any subject. I am glad to discuss those issues further with them but, if their ultimate goal is solely for me to comply and abide by their requests then, I have absolutely no problem cutting them off. Clear?

Force? Is a gun being held to your head? Is your family being threatened? Might you go to jail or lose your job?
You have a very low bar for what is "forced."

 

[Starlight]

Then you should have no trouble answering it. Please go ahead.

Biological women have vegina
Biological men have penis

Biological women get menses, and can get pregnant and giving birth

Biological men do not get menses, and they can not get pregnant

Biological women have much more estrogen than biological men

Biological men has much more testosteron than women. And because of that men has different looks than biological women and men is much stronger than biological women

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Biological women have much more estrogen than biological men

As do trans women via hormones

Biological men has much more testosteron than women

As do trans men via hormones

 

[Starlight]

As do trans women via hormones



As do trans men via hormones

Different chromosome between biological women and biological men:
chromosome pair 23, XX for female and XY for male, the differences between the sexes are apparent. The "Y chromosome" is much shorter than it's corresponding "X chromosome". Despite its size the "Y chromosome carries two of the most important genes for a male. One of these genes is called SRY that determine the maleness of the human species

And transwomen do not have womb and they can not get pregnant or giving birth. transwomen can not get the menses.
Transwomen do have the chromosome pair 23, XY, the same chromosome biological men has. Transwomen can never get the chromosome that biological women has.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Different chromosome between biological women and biological men:
chromosome pair 23, XX for female and XY for male, the differences between the sexes are apparent. The "Y chromosome" is much shorter than it's corresponding "X chromosome". Despite its size the "Y chromosome carries two of the most important genes for a male. One of these genes is called SRY that determine the maleness of the human species

And transwomen do not have womb and they can not get pregnant or giving birth. transwomen can not get the menses.
Transwomen do have the chromosome pair 23, XY, the same chromosome biological men has. Transwomen can never get the chromosome that biological women has.

Spoiler

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Biological women have vegina
Biological men have penis

So it's entirely about primary sex characteristics for you? Not, say, genetics?

Biological women get menses, and can get pregnant and giving birth

Biological men do not get menses, and they can not get pregnant

So post-menopausal women are men?

Biological women have much more estrogen than biological men

So women with, say, Turner Syndrome aren't women?

Biological men has much more testosteron than women. And because of that men has different looks than biological women and men is much stronger than biological women

So men with low testosterone aren't men?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Different chromosome between biological women and biological men:
chromosome pair 23, XX for female and XY for male, the differences between the sexes are apparent. The "Y chromosome" is much shorter than it's corresponding "X chromosome". Despite its size the "Y chromosome carries two of the most important genes for a male. One of these genes is called SRY that determine the maleness of the human species

And transwomen do not have womb and they can not get pregnant or giving birth. transwomen can not get the menses.
Transwomen do have the chromosome pair 23, XY, the same chromosome biological men has. Transwomen can never get the chromosome that biological women has.

Wait - before you were saying it was all about gonads. Now it's about chromosomes? Which is it?

Edit: and you touched on chromosomes AND the SRY gene. You realize that sometimes people will have a Y chromosome but not an SRY gene, right?