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How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.
Its not the epic alone. There are ancient tombs in Egypt where can be found carbon dated texts older than Moses mentioning creation stories similar but not same as those in Genesis, but I don't have a bibliography to show you. Just for the sake of argument this is what I am led to believe. In addition the plagues of Egypt correspond to features of Egypt that most people, today, are not aware of. For example in Egypt (before the damns were built in the 20th century) the Nile would flood bringing life to the crops. It would temporarily flow red with silt and flow green. Then the rest of the year it would flow clear. These correspond to the plagues of blood and frogs, and this behavior of the Nile greatly predates the story of Exodus. Point is, though I have not provided lots of bibliography, the literal stories in Genesis are reasonably in question. They are as much a matter of belief as any supernatural claim.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.
Actually, if it was a real event, we would expect to find legends about it, right after it occurred. And that’s what we see.

But look at the difference in the E of G’s Ark dimensions & those of Genesis’ (Noah’s) Ark…..

the ratios of Noah’s Ark, reduced to 30(L):5(W):3(H), are ratios used in modern shipbuilding for seaworthiness!
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Its not the epic alone. There are ancient tombs in Egypt where can be found carbon dated texts older than Moses mentioning creation stories ..
Yes, there were floods all the time, in Nile, in Euphrates, in Indus and Ganges, and in Yangtse. But an older story of flood is in Zoroastrian 'Gatha', a flood by ice.

"Ahura Mazda warns him of an upcoming catastrophe: 'O fair Yima, son of Vivaŋhat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall bring the fierce, deadly frost; upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an arədvi deep on the highest tops of mountains.' "

That is a 20,000 year old story of flood.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.

Let me ask some questions to help stimulate discussion here:

1) Could any evidence change your mind about the historicity of the global flood as described in the Bible? What would it be?

and

2) Could any evidence convince you that the author(s) of Genesis used the Epic of Gilgamesh (or any other pagan text) as a basis for their version of the myth? What would it be?
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I would not go so far as to say Noah’s flood was “stolen” from earlier myths, but there is definitely a connection. Some shared truths, some intertwined culture, etc.

“The Epic of Gilgamesh” is not a story about a flood but about a warrior’s quest for immortality. The flood is the subject of one chapter/ tablet only, when Gilgamesh meets Utnapishtim. Utnapishtim was the “Noah” of his day and the stories are almost completely identical, and he relays to Gilgamesh the events as he experienced them.

However, when I read early Mesopotamian flood myths involving Utnapishtim or Atrahasis, I don’t get the impression of a worldwide flood (even though that’s epic to imagine), but a massive catastrophic regional flood, with the ark’s inhabitants being some families and craftsman from the village and their livestock.

So, I imagine there is some truth to these myths that connects them, but maybe not in the way that is commonly interpreted. Kind of like, whether or not a volcanic eruption was involved in the Moses myth.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
If the flood myths is real, why do the flood myths change as time goes on to become more like the myth of the bible? We also have Ziusudra and Altra-Hasis. Shouldn't the myth closest to the event be the more accurate one, or does the telephone game work backwards?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hey, @Xavier Graham SA ,here are two very similar threads that started, and pretty much ended, before you joined us. Thought you might like them!
…..

Evidences Supporting the Biblical Flood

…then this thread was revised:


Flood Evidences — revised

I tend to see the flood as many smaller floods at the same time in various parts of the world. It would do the same job and eliminate the problems for one global flood covering all the mountains. It does not go against what science has discovered.
I see Psalm 104 as being about the creation and not incorporating the flood. If that is true then Psalm 104 denies the truth of one mass global flood that covered the whole earth because it says that the water would not cover the earth again.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
If the flood myths is real, why do the flood myths change as time goes on to become more like the myth of the bible? We also have Ziusudra and Altra-Hasis. Shouldn't the myth closest to the event be the more accurate one, or does the telephone game work backwards?

Are you speaking about myths from around the globe?
Maybe they had not been corrupted as much as the Gilgamesh myth, which probably was not even a story that was there to record accurate history anyway.
 

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
Let me ask some questions to help stimulate discussion here:

1) Could any evidence change your mind about the historicity of the global flood as described in the Bible? What would it be?

and

2) Could any evidence convince you that the author(s) of Genesis used the Epic of Gilgamesh (or any other pagan text) as a basis for their version of the myth? What would it be?

1. Well, I’m a hardline Biblical literalist. So I suppose if I’m not convinced by the current evidence that I shouldn’t take my Bible literally, then I probably wouldn’t be convinced with new evidence. I believe in a young earth while there is evidence of an old earth, for example. So for the historicity of the flood I’ll probably always believe.

2. Personally, I believe that some of the Mesopotamian myths are alluded to in the book of Genesis.
Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The fallen angels of before the flood had children which were these giant creatures, Nephilim. The fallen angels themselves supposedly taught mankind and were sort of Demi gods to them perhaps. “The heroes of old” I think is a reference to Myth. I suppose that the Nephilim and fallen angels were the inspirations for ancient mythologies. I say Mesopotamia mainly because the Bible teaches that mankind originated from Babylon (after the flood) and also Abraham is called from his Native land of Mesopotamia.
So I think that some pagan texts get their inspiration from the events described by the Bible (and surrounding texts)
 
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Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
If the flood myths is real, why do the flood myths change as time goes on to become more like the myth of the bible? We also have Ziusudra and Altra-Hasis. Shouldn't the myth closest to the event be the more accurate one, or does the telephone game work backwards?

If the flood event predates the story and writing by 5000 years, I don't think so.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
If the flood event predates the story and writing by 5000 years, I don't think so.

Wait, so why would other stories get it so wrong, but the biblical myth that came later get it right?

Seems more likely to me that the biblical version was just inspired by the previous myths. o_O

Is there another time in history when this happens, where stories told later happen to be told exactly the way they were at a later time? I suppose we can do this better now with the advent of forensic, archaeological, and paleological science, but they didn't have that then.
 
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