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Should God have created a world without suffering?

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A human first says I am a human.

If a human says monkeys sex produced a human they lie. Monkeys are healthy have monkey babies.

Humans have human babies.

Monkey healthy looked at as a healthy monkey. By a healthy human.

Science says once humans mutated looked like monkeys.

Where is the comparison?

Healthy human.
Healthy monkey.

Not healthy human past.
Not a healthy monkey either.

Ignored human advice.

God. O earth exists. Heavens exists. Both mass forms.

I am not mass. One God is mass.

Pretty basic commonsense advice

Science says each one base heaven gas. Named. Fake. Mass is heavens.

Theist one self one human pretending I own every one base gas support.

Space by pressure first owner pressure a status owned any form formed.

Lied. Mass owned human lifes protection.

Human in experience knows science is a liar it is a human practice chosen only by his man's themes in groups.

One self natural never needed science to survive

We are all just the one self in a multi mass shared speaking communal advice.

One self who speaks for everyone is human advice.

One self not speaking about natural one self human is a liar.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Its the logical conclusion of what you're arguing.
It is not a logical conclusion it is just your conclusion. You cannot know if God has apathy, you only say that because God won't give you what you want and expect.
Sure, but what's the relevant difference between God and humans that excuses God from acting with empathy toward other sentient beings?
God does act with empathy. He just does not act the way you want Him to, like Superman.
Any god worth its salt is immensely more capable than a human in anything a human might do... no?
So what? God is also capable of wiping us out in a split second. Capability does not imply responsibility.
Sure, that would work. He could also magically poof vitamins into the bloodstream of the affected child.

... or he could send one of those "Messengers" you like to go on about and have him deliver vitamins.

... or God could just have designed human beings without the flaw of rickets vulnerability in the first place.
God could have done lots of things, but this thread is about what God could have done, not about what God should have done.

Problem is, whenever you say what God should have done differently, you are saying that you know more than God which is logically impossible since you are not all-knowing like God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Or cure children with cancers.
Or cure old people who have Alzheimer's disease. Or cure people with heart disease. Or cure people who are dying of Covid-19.

Why this obsession with children who have cancer? It sounds like you are acting on emotion, not upon reason.
Right, a world that includes cancers. Too bad no one can figure out why including cancers is a BEST WAY to create the world.
Nobody can figure it out because nobody is all-knowing. Only God is all-knowing and God already knows.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure, but that doesn't answer the question of whether that is benevolent; and that's been the point. It's special pleading if we insist it must have been.
What is considered benevolent will vary between people. What I consider benevolent will not be what you consider benevolent so the PoE is basically a worthless proposition. I and others on this thread have said that suffering has been very beneficial for them so you cannot say that a God that allows allowing suffering is not benevolent. Whether God allowing suffering is benevolent or not is highly subjective. It is only a matter of personal opinion, nothing that could ever be proven as a fact.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No :) suffering is needed for humans to realize their shortcomings. If there was no suffering why would someone want to change them self toward something better ( as described in spiritual teachings)
Indeed.
Did I miss a thread you posted? I have been so busy defensing the guilty God I have not been getting around much. ;)
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That works if you don't assume an all-knowing creator exists.

If you do, then there's the creator to blame.
Foreknowledge does not imply responsibility because foreknowledge is not connected to causality.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

You just have to blame someone don't you, even when nobody is to blame? **** just happens, everyone knows that. That's just part of life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Only humans are guilty:)
Obviously, but some people want to blame God so they can relinquish all responsibility.

Just imagine if they tried to do that in a court of law.
Your honor, I did not not kill my wife! God knew I was going to kill my wife so God caused me to kill my wife
That is essentially what is being argued on this thread and others, that God has foreknowledge of everything so God is the cause of everything!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have several questions:

1. Should God have created a world without suffering? If so, why? If not, why not?

2. How could God have created humans with physical bodies without engendering suffering?

3. How could God have created a material world without engendering suffering?

4. If God prevented suffering should God prevent all suffering or just some suffering?

5. If God prevented some suffering should God allow some people to suffer more than other people?

Thanks, Trailblazer. :)

I suppose one could even ask "Should God have created a world at all?"

And if God is going to create a world with human beings, why would He announce His presence? Why are there scriptures and messengers for God to communicate through? Why not just leave us alone and let us do what we want and see how it goes? Why would God need to lay down lists of rules and commandments, along with punishments if we don't comply?

But to answer your question: Should God have created a world without suffering?

I would say it largely depends on how one conceives "God." Personally, I think the concept is too vague and indefinable that any attempt by humans to do so is nothing more than speculation.

So let's assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a sentient, intelligent entity called "God" who created the universe in which we live. Even if we set that aside and assume it to be true, we still would not be able to assume much else.

Your question carries the premise that God actually intended to create the world and the circumstances by which humans would evolve and live. Maybe we were the result of an accident, something totally unintended. Or maybe the rest of the universe was intended to be an idyllic place without suffering, and we just ended up as some kind of exception, an anomaly, a forgotten backwater.

And maybe God never really did tell humans of His existence. Humans would have just made it all up anyway, just as we did with all the other gods and goddesses one can find throughout history.

To me, it's easier to assume that God doesn't exist at all, or if He does exist, then one could say that He didn't really mean to create a planet with suffering, that maybe this is some kind of mistake.

But rather than simply admit to the possibility, some people go through a lot of stretches and leaps in order to reconcile the fact of human suffering with the speculation that there is being called "God" who is infinitely good, filled with love for humanity (who were created in His image), merciful, and has a divine plan for us all. For centuries, such a belief was propagated with the implied threat that anyone who didn't believe would be deemed a "heretic" and tortured and burned at the stake. Fortunately, the secular humanists put a stop to that kind of barbarism.

Religion seems to place a greater emphasis on suffering, actually. It's natural for humans and other animals to want to avoid suffering, so religion plays on that fear to manipulate and coerce humans. Religion wants people to submit and endure their suffering, because if they don't, they face an eternity of suffering in the afterlife.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Should God have created a world without suffering? If so, why? If not, why not?
Of course, if He is benevolent. And almighty.

How could God have created humans with physical bodies without engendering suffering?
It's like asking, how could we create machines made of ice without engendering melting? Answer: don't create machines made of ice, if you do not want melting. Especially if you are almighty. Same thing: don't create humans with physical body if you don't want suffering. Create them directly into that spiritual stuff that we will have in Heaven.
How could God have created a material world without engendering suffering?
Ditto. I am sure His doctor did not advise Him to create a physical world to stay fit
If God prevented suffering should God prevent all suffering or just some suffering?
Same thing as in Heaven, since there will be no suffering up there, allegedly. So, there is at least a solution to the problem
If God prevented some suffering should God allow some people to suffer more than other people?
N/A, since He could prevent all suffering.

Ciao

- viole
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I suppose one could even ask "Should God have created a world at all?"
According to my beliefs the world was created for humans and God created humans out of His love for us:

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4
And if God is going to create a world with human beings, why would He announce His presence? Why are there scriptures and messengers for God to communicate through? Why not just leave us alone and let us do what we want and see how it goes? Why would God need to lay down lists of rules and commandments, along with punishments if we don't comply?
These are good questions. God sends Messengers who reveal scriptures to humans to guide humanity to the straight path, instead of allowing them to go down the wrong path. The teachings and laws of the Messengers are for our own benefit, so we will know how to fulfill the purpose of our existence, which is to know and love God and acquire spiritual qualities such that we will have what we need when we die and enter the spiritual world.
But to answer your question: Should God have created a world without suffering?

I would say it largely depends on how one conceives "God." Personally, I think the concept is too vague and indefinable that any attempt by humans to do so is nothing more than speculation.

So let's assume, for the sake of argument, that there is a sentient, intelligent entity called "God" who created the universe in which we live. Even if we set that aside and assume it to be true, we still would not be able to assume much else.

Your question carries the premise that God actually intended to create the world and the circumstances by which humans would evolve and live. Maybe we were the result of an accident, something totally unintended. Or maybe the rest of the universe was intended to be an idyllic place without suffering, and we just ended up as some kind of exception, an anomaly, a forgotten backwater.

And maybe God never really did tell humans of His existence. Humans would have just made it all up anyway, just as we did with all the other gods and goddesses one can find throughout history.

To me, it's easier to assume that God doesn't exist at all, or if He does exist, then one could say that He didn't really mean to create a planet with suffering, that maybe this is some kind of mistake.
So, are you saying that it would be a mistake if God did exist and God created planet where humans would suffer, even though God does not directly cause the suffering?
But rather than simply admit to the possibility, some people go through a lot of stretches and leaps in order to reconcile the fact of human suffering with the speculation that there is being called "God" who is infinitely good, filled with love for humanity (who were created in His image), merciful, and has a divine plan for us all. For centuries, such a belief was propagated with the implied threat that anyone who didn't believe would be deemed a "heretic" and tortured and burned at the stake. Fortunately, the secular humanists put a stop to that kind of barbarism.
The Baha'i Faith is too small as yet to put a stop to such barbarism, but we would agree it is wrong. We believe that belief should be a choice and if people do not choose to believe they simply do not get the benefits and rewards that come with believing. but there are no punishments from God.
Religion seems to place a greater emphasis on suffering, actually. It's natural for humans and other animals to want to avoid suffering, so religion plays on that fear to manipulate and coerce humans. Religion wants people to submit and endure their suffering, because if they don't, they face an eternity of suffering in the afterlife.
I do not understand how you think religion plays on the fear of suffering to manipulate humans. We all suffer equally, whether we have a religion or not because suffering is inherent in a life in the material world. How is submitting and enduring our suffering in this life a way to avoid an eternity of suffering in the afterlife? Did you mean that religion plays on our fear of suffering in the afterlife to manipulate and coerce humans?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
1. Should God have created a world without suffering? If so, why? If not, why not?
Would have been nice if we could all enjoy life without really knowing any actual struggles or significant challenges and suffering. Like this med student I talked to who has a very clinical understanding of mental illness. That's probably about as nice as not living a life of chronic pain. It would be a wonderful world if all moms did deserve praise and adoration, if families always worked, and things like bullying doesn't exist. Nor does the myriad forms of abuse that appears to active genetic triggers that can make things so messed up that in those with the potential it literally brings the serial killer out in them.
It would be great if this world was free of things that lead to suffering and prevent lives fully lead. But, at most, we're not as violent as we were which does certainly reduce suffering, as does the advances in healthcare. But we still romanticize suffering and mental illness and other perversities and try to downplay and diminish the effects and things going on when suffering is involved.
But I don't know about the shoulds. It made have been an unintended glitch from making something so elaborate and complicated. And shoulds are usually and often just a personal wishlist. Maybe it could be that suffering in some forms does bring about something needed in the world. It would be rather crappy, but it may be how it has to be.
IMO, if there is a God, they did create a world without suffering.
Humans choose to suffer.
They don't have to.
It could all be beautiful.
But humans choose to see it otherwise.
I didn't choose to have bad knees, gender dysphoria, or the many circumstances that set me up for a rough life. Such braindead assumptions do nothing but invalidate what people are going through. Which, if anything, tends to make things worse when you are doubted because it's "all in your head" and insisting one can just "snap out it."
From Buddhism to New Age and self help, there are real consequences for society believing people choose to suffer. Doesn't matter the form, it's a stinky pile of manure.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's like asking, how could we create machines made of ice without engendering melting? Answer: don't create machines made of ice, if you do not want melting. Especially if you are almighty. Same thing: don't create humans with physical body if you don't want suffering. Create them directly into that spiritual stuff that we will have in Heaven.
That would work to prevent physical suffering but without the physical world we would have no way to prepare for the spiritual world. It is like a child who needs to develop in the womb world in order to be prepared for life in the physical world. There will be no physical suffering in the spiritual world but if we are not prepared to enter it there will be psychic suffering, the suffering of the soul, and it could endure for all of eternity.
Ditto. I am sure His doctor did not advise Him to create a physical world to stay fit.
No, the purpose of the physical world is to prepare us for life in the spiritual world. Suffering is part of the preparation because it helps us grow spiritually.
Same thing as in Heaven, since there will be no suffering up there, allegedly. So, there is at least a solution to the problem.
That is the ultimate solution but there no shortcuts to getting to Heaven. We have to develop in this life in order to be prepared to enter heaven, just as a child needs to develop in the womb in order to be prepare for life in the physical world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I didn't choose to have bad knees, gender dysphoria, or the many circumstances that set me up for a rough life. Such braindead assumptions do nothing but invalidate what people are going through. Which, if anything, tends to make things worse when you are doubted because it's "all in your head" and insisting one can just "snap out it."
From Buddhism to New Age and self help, there are real consequences for society believing people choose to suffer. Doesn't matter the form, it's a stinky pile of manure.
You just said it better than I did. I am usually too lenient with these sorts of comments, it's my personality. ;)
But I will add one thing to what you said....

"O Great Spirit, May I never judge another man until I have walked a mile in his moccasins."
 
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