Young Hillsong Church congregant who mocked vaccine dies of COVID

[Left Coast]

Hm. All I can say to that is he has a point.

The problem is do you consider it or shoot him down?

(Not saying I agree just saying he has a point)

But he doesn't. Unless you believe in a conspiracy where public health organizations and governments all over the globe are in a cabal to literally make up safety and mortality data about COVID and COVID vaccines, his point is silly (and internally inconsistent, since he believes what he's told about COVID mortality rates but not about COVID vaccine safety).

 

[ElishaElijah]

Name ONE vaccine that is 100% effective against ANY disease

No kidding and why I’m waiting for the trial period for the roll out to see

What is it you're waiting for, exactly? What evidence are you looking for that would convince you to actually be vaccinated?

What’s the normal trial period for a vaccine? 5-10 years? Well this one was too fast and untested so will wait. I think that with all the people who got vaccinated so far we will know the effects and then can make adjustments. Again I’m not anti-vaccination

 

[Left Coast]

What’s the normal trial period for a vaccine? 5-10 years? Well this one was too fast and untested so will wait. I think that with all the people who got vaccinated so far we will know the effects and then can make adjustments. Again I’m not anti-vaccination

These vaccines were not untested. Again, they were tested on literally tens of thousands of people in multiple rounds of safety and efficacy testing prior to being approved for the public. You can look at the link I posted earlier in the thread where the CDC literally links to the clinical trial data. You can read it yourself.

On how the vaccines were produced and approved so quickly:

Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (see the video)

How Were the COVID-19 Vaccines Made So Fast? (ucsd.edu)

As far as knowing the effects, you're right - we do know them. And what we know now that millions of people worldwide have been vaccinated is that the vaccines are very safe and that the side effects are mild.

So again, what data are you waiting for that would convince you to be vaccinated?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you choose not to ask people, then it doesn't really make sense to say we can't know what motivates people to decide against vaccination.

In my living environment I have no reason to ask anyone anything. At work, we can get in trouble for talking about it and its inappropriate to ask at my other job even though we don't have those stipulations. My neighbors aren't my friends and all the people on RF are strangers and can mean just as much on RF than any other non authoritative website.

People just don't make a big political deal where I live. Of course they want you to social distance, wear a mask, and get vaccinated but we don't know each other that well to ask the other about our health practices and such.

Correct, because the ones you mentioned wouldn't be mentioned by people who knew the 4 points I laid out.

I don't know the whole world population and each antivaxxer person's intentions. It's best just to accept the reasons given than asking and expecting a different answer. It's pretty much the same: side affects, experimental, political influences, or just plain weighing one's own risk of catching COVID, situation, resources, and morals.

Again, no one is setting you up in a corner. No one claimed we "know the whole world."

Meaning you're playing a logical fallacy: If I can't list all other reasons not listed than my point is invalidated.

If people gave reasons that were grounded in empirical evidence and supported by the professionals whose careers are dedicated to accurate dissemination of research data on these topics, I very much would say that makes sense. But that's the problem. Antivax folks don't have either of those things.

It does AND people still use this grounded evidence and put it in context to their situation, health, and other factors then choose from there.

All I know is antivaxxers are against the vaccine and provaxxers are for it. Everything attributed to these two groups depends on the person(s) biases and issues.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But he doesn't. Unless you believe in a conspiracy where public health organizations and governments all over the globe are in a cabal to literally make up safety and mortality data about COVID and COVID vaccines, his point is silly (and internally inconsistent, since he believes what he's told about COVID mortality rates but not about COVID vaccine safety).

I took it to mean that the government pretty much tells us what we want to hear-in one respect that is good so it won't start a panic and on the other side if people don't fall into that pressure they start to distrust the government if they have not already.

I didn't follow you guys' conversation, but I highly doubt that the intentions you're placing on him are facts.

 

[Left Coast]

In my living environment I have no reason to ask anyone anything. At work, we can get in trouble for talking about it and its inappropriate to ask at my other job even though we don't have those stipulations. My neighbors aren't my friends and all the people on RF are strangers and can mean just as much on RF than any other non authoritative website.

People just don't make a big political deal where I live. Of course they want you to social distance, wear a mask, and get vaccinated but we don't know each other that well to ask the other about our health practices and such.

So, again, you can't say we don't know what people's reasons are if you haven't asked. I actually have asked.

I don't know the whole world population and each antivaxxer person's intentions. It's best just to accept the reasons given than asking and expecting a different answer. It's pretty much the same: side affects, experimental, political influences, or just plain weighing one's own risk of catching COVID, situation, resources, and morals.

Right, and as I said, those reasons aren't reasons that such people would give if they were informed on the subject. They give those reasons, as we've seen in this very thread, because they're misinformed and often believe conspiracy theory stuff.

Meaning you're playing a logical fallacy: If I can't list all other reasons not listed than my point is invalidated.

There's no logical fallacy. If you claim x exists, and then I ask you for evidence and you can't give any, but just hold on to some vague, "but some could be out there because we don't know everything," I'm justified logically in not believing you until you show up with some evidence.

All I know is antivaxxers are against the vaccine and provaxxers are for it. Everything attributed to these two groups depends on the person(s) biases and issues.

Again, imagine how you'd reply to a YEC or a flat earther who said that.

 

[Twilight Hue]

With one round to six chambers, luck is also in your favor when you play Russian roulette, so by your logic why not give the cylinder a spin and the trigger a squeeze?

If it's actually a one in six chance, I'd agree with your point.

 

[Left Coast]

I took it to mean that the government pretty much tells us what we want to hear-in one respect that is good so it won't start a panic and on the other side if people don't fall into that pressure they start to distrust the government if they have not already.

I didn't follow you guys' conversation, but I highly doubt that the intentions you're placing on him are facts.

There was no "conversation," it was two posts. You saw the "conversation." He verbatim said he did not know that the risk of dying from COVID was greater than the risk of dying from the COVID vaccine...so again, his behavior is rooted in his lack of understanding of the issue.

He then made a comment intended to imply something conspiratorial and suspicious about "what we're told," despite him believing "what we're told" when it comes to COVID mortality.

 

[Wandering Monk]

No I don't. I know what we are being told.

So what do you know that informs your decision not to get vaxxed?

 

[Twilight Hue]

34 million confirmed cases in the US, 19 million hospitalizations for Covid. That is a 54% chance of hospitalization if you test positive.

I'd like a source for that information.

Sounds a bit high as a one out of two infected people in the entire population of 332,987,277 people ends up in hospital. 19 million dosent even scratch the surface of the total population.

Come to think of it, do we even have enough hospitals to accommodate those figures?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So, again, you can't say we don't know what people's reasons are if you haven't asked. I actually have asked.

Every antivaxxer?

Right, and as I said, those reasons aren't reasons that such people would give if they were informed on the subject. They give those reasons, as we've seen in this very thread, because they're misinformed and often believe conspiracy theory stuff.

But you don't know every single person who choose not to take the vaccine. They could be antivaxxer (defined by you) or they could just made the decision not to vaccinate.

It has nothing to do with conspiracy. They just made a decision you heavily disagree with.

There's no logical fallacy. If you claim x exists, and then I ask you for evidence and you can't give any, but just hold on to some vague, "but some could be out there because we don't know everything," I'm justified logically in not believing you until you show up with some evidence.

If you don't accept the reasons I gave then you're asking the same question and expecting a different result.

By whose criteria, though?

It's better to just say "I get your evidence I just don't agree with it" or "I get your reasons but I think they are illogical."

Address the reasons I gave and topic of discussion.

Again, imagine how you'd reply to a YEC or a flat earther who said that.

They're not related.

Some people just don't trust the US government in many respects.

I mean, they even claim that unvaccinated people are somehow conservatives and only democrats think correctly to vaccinate.

So, no one is the victim here.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yeah, there's all sorts of luck catching Covid. I prefer better luck (through good sense) and not being one of the victims of the pandemic.

I think we all are going to get exposed at some point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There was no "conversation," it was two posts. You saw the "conversation." He verbatim said he did not know that the risk of dying from COVID was greater than the risk of dying from the COVID vaccine...so again, his behavior is rooted in his lack of understanding of the issue.

He then made a comment intended to imply something conspiratorial and suspicious about "what we're told," despite him believing "what we're told" when it comes to COVID mortality.

Okay. But my point is not everyone falls under his line of thinking. People Do think clearly, know the facts and evidence, and for whatever Logical reason they decide not to vaccinate.

(@Wildswanderer) He is just one out of millions that have an opinion.

 

[F1fan]

I think we all are going to get exposed at some point.

When people don't take expert advice to help eliminate the virus, then yes, it remains and thrives. Those who don't wear masks or avoid the vaccine are no better than the virus, because they are complicit with the effects of the pandemic.

I'm as big a rebel as you will find in society, but I understand science and the value of the social contract.

 

[F1fan]

,

Okay. But my point is not everyone falls under his line of thinking. People Do think clearly, know the facts and evidence, and forever Logical reason they decide not to vaccinate.

Only if there is medical concern for them not to. Otherwise they are just being dumb rebels who are complicit with the pandemic.

 

[Left Coast]

Every antivaxxer?

No, as I've already said multiple times now.

But you don't know every single person who choose not to take the vaccine. They could be antivaxxer (defined by you) or they could just made the decision not to vaccinate.

And I keep waiting for you to show me a person who has chosen to be unvaccinated who is aware of the 4 facts I mentioned earlier.

It has nothing to do with conspiracy. They just made a decision you heavily disagree with.

Believing the government is making up data to control people is literally a conspiracy.

If you don't accept the reasons I gave then you're asking the same question and expecting a different result.

By whose criteria, though?

By the criteria of scientific professionals whose literal job is to evaluate the evidence regarding COVID vaccine efficacy and safety.

It's better to just say "I get your evidence I just don't agree with it" or "I get your reasons but I think they are illogical."

Address the reasons I gave and topic of discussion.

I've addressed every reason you gave, UA. What would you like to go over again?

They're not related.

Actually, they are. I have heard very similar sentiments expressed by YECers and antivaxxers, particularly when it comes to conspiracy, not understanding scientific research, and so on. They're also both prevalent in conservative circles.

Some people just don't trust the US government in many respects.

Which, again, is a reflection of their ignorance on this subject because it goes far beyond the United States. The vaccines have been tested, evaluated, and administered by governments around the world.

I mean, they even claim that unvaccinated people are somehow conservatives and only democrats think correctly.

Who is "they?" As for the first claim, I'd be willing to bet there is a strong correlation there. As to the second, I don't subscribe to it.

So, no one is the victim here.

The victims are people like those in the OP who die of COVID because they swallowed bull**** about COVID and the COVID vaccines.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Left Coast let me ask another question. Have you thought that not all vaccinated people made the decision to vaccinate because they logically assess the facts and made sound decisions?

They could have ran off got vaccinated out of fear, someone says so, what they read online, or just not wanting to be "one of them." Not all vaccinated people do so because they research the information. People make decisions based on their own circumstances, what they know, and what they are told....

vaccinated/unvaccinated people alike.

 

[Left Coast]

Okay. But my point is not everyone falls under his line of thinking. People Do think clearly, know the facts and evidence, and forever Logical reason they decide not to vaccinate.

Like which logical reason? Again, I keep waiting for you to actually substantiate this.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

,

Only if there is medical concern for them not to. Otherwise they are just being dumb rebels who are complicit with the pandemic.

Like I asked Left Coast, how does being unvaccinated=being dumb?

What's the inherent connection between the two?

 

[Left Coast]

@Left Coast let me ask another question. Have you thought that not all vaccinated people made the decision to vaccinate because they logically assess the facts and made sound decisions?

They could have ran off got vaccinated out of fear, someone says so, what they read online, or just not wanting to be "one of them." Not all vaccinated people do so because they research the information. People make decisions based on their own circumstances, what they know, and what they are told....

vaccinated/unvaccinated people alike.

It's certainly true that some people could have gotten vaccinated for illogical reasons. Like some people may believe the earth is round for illogical reasons.

But at the end of the day...the earth is round. Like at the end of the day, the COVID vaccines are safe and effective.