Debate a Muslim

[Meow Mix]

Do you think if I have a poorer memory than you that I'm intellectually inferior to you? Or if someone is better at mathematics than you that they are intellectually superior it you?

I believe men and women are different. I believe they have their strengths and weaknesses. Those do not make either of them generally superior or inferior.

There is scientific evidence that in affairs like memory, logic, mathematical reasoning, and so forth that there is no effective difference between the sexes.

But okay, I hear you. Your reasoning is not misogynistic; it's still strictly sexist, and I believe wrong, but not misogynistic then.

 

[firedragon]

No hurry. The court is run by humans. They make all kinds of solutions.

Well that's great. So whats the hurry when there is no hurry?

 

[firedragon]

There is; but I'm also of the opinion there should be paternity leave as well.

Now see, in the UK, men gat paternity leave, but women get much longer maternity leave. Do you think that's "sexist"?

 

[Meow Mix]

Now see, in the UK, men gat paternity leave, but women get much longer maternity leave. Do you think that's "sexist"?

I guess I have to say yes; but justified. It's incontrovertible that people with wombs that give birth need physical time for recovery.

However if it comes to things like saying men and women have different cognitive and mental strengths and weaknesses, that isn't supported by science, so would be unjustified sexism.

It's a tough line of questioning to answer, so kudos for that I guess.

 

[firedragon]

I guess I have to say yes; but justified. It's incontrovertible that people with wombs that give birth need physical time for recovery.

However if it comes to things like saying men and women have different cognitive and mental strengths and weaknesses, that isn't supported by science, so would be unjustified sexism.

It's a tough line of questioning to answer, so kudos for that I guess.

I would question you asking "who said that women and men have different cognitive and mental strengths and weaknesses"? Why can't it be just recognising simple biological differences like you actually said above which is similar to "people with wombs that give birth need physical time for recovery"/

 

[Meow Mix]

I would question you asking "who said that women and men have different cognitive and mental strengths and weaknesses"? Why can't it be just recognising simple biological differences like you actually said above which is similar to "people with wombs that give birth need physical time for recovery"/

@Shakeel said that men and women have different mental strengths and weaknesses. I know other people that think the same. This can even be true demographically within social contexts (e.g., take a society that raises girls one way and raises boys another way, and surprise surprise, they will grow up with cognitive and mental differences).

And I can even say that maybe some of these old religious texts were written with that in mind (that in the society at the time, perhaps these differences were demographically present).

However I think it's an unacceptable form of sexism when generalized because there is a ton of scientific research into this, and when social factors are accounted for, there is no mental/cognitive difference between men and women to speak of. These kinds of differences seem always to be culturally informed.

So, this is what made your question tough to answer. Sexism as a word is usually used negatively because it's usually in reference to sex-based policy differences that aren't based on any kind of reality other than possibly how people are raised and what the society around them is like and expects of them.

But sometimes sexism as a word technically applies to reasonable things like maternity leave. And then there are gray areas where people will probably have differing opinions like drafts (I personally think no one should be drafted, but if it must be so, then I think women should be drafted too).

So I guess I'm saying we must sometimes say whether sexism is justified or not justified to determine if the sexism is a negative thing or not.

 

[firedragon]

@Shakeel said that men and women have different mental strengths and weaknesses. I know other people that think the same. This can even be true demographically within social contexts (e.g., take a society that raises girls one way and raises boys another way, and surprise surprise, they will grow up with cognitive and mental differences).

Okay. Someone said in this thread. But you see, the Qur'an says "And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32"

And I can even say that maybe some of these old religious texts were written with that in mind (that in the society at the time, perhaps these differences were demographically present).

Absolutely not. If you do trust in some of the Islamic history, one of the most prominent and sophisticated scholars of Islam in the earliest times of Islam was a woman. This is the traditional accounts so if you want you can reject it. But its fact. She was supposed to be the most sophisticated in Intelligent Quotient. But this is just history, if you wish as I said you can reject it.

However I think it's an unacceptable form of sexism when generalized because there is a ton of scientific research into this, and when social factors are accounted for, there is no mental/cognitive difference between men and women to speak of. These kinds of differences seem always to be culturally informed.

I definitely agree. There is no way there is a difference in any kind of intelligence between the sexes. Only thing is, I have read some studies that show women have more capability in multitasking. Also women have better ability of mixing their emotions and rationality better than men. So I believe its like a hand in glove kind of situation. If you ask me for this study, I will have to dig into books so you have to give me time.

So, this is what made your question tough to answer. Sexism as a word is usually used negatively because it's usually in reference to sex-based policy differences that aren't based on any kind of reality other than possibly how people are raised and what the society around them is like and expects of them.

Sex based policy differences are not essentially sexist. Thats the whole point. It could be, but not necessarily. Immediate judgement of a difference in a sex based policy is unreasonable.

 

[firedragon]

So I guess I'm saying we must sometimes say whether sexism is justified or not justified to determine if the sexism is a negative thing or not.

BTW, just FYI, in some so called Islamic countries, maternity leave is 3 months, and paternity leave is exactly 3 days. Some companies give 5 days. I think that's extremely sexist if this is the standard for sexism. What with men having sleepless nights worrying about their wives who give birth to a beautiful little thing. Haha. I am just kidding. Nowadays women are at work as much as men predominantly. And more importantly, this is a phenomena almost across the world. But still, it is highly important to give women some extended leave for them to seriously bond with the child, nurse them and nurture them. This will in my opinion nurture the future of the whole world.

Thats not being sexist. In my opinion, that's being rational.

 

[Tiberius]

well. If you want to really get into regression like "something could happen to the man", well then something could happen to 10 men, anything could happen to 2, this regression is infinite. If someone wishes to argue you can argue like that. About anything and everything.

But its only rational to think a woman has more things under her belt. More responsibilities and the ones I stipulated are biological.

If the women have so many more responsibilities, then why aren't they the ones running things? Let me guess, because they're busy cooking the food, raising the babies and cleaning the house, because that's women's work.

And you don't think men also have responsibilities?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Sis. What you read on the internet is bogus apologetics. The way you worded your question is testimony of your epistemic catastrophe.

Not when there are Islamic scholars who teach these kinds of things. Unless you're willing to tell them that their interpretations are "bogus apologetics," you can't really blame a non-Muslim for asking these questions.

Men are the caretakers of women, as men have been provisioned by Allah over women and tasked with supporting them financially. And righteous women are devoutly obedient and, when alone, protective of what Allah has entrusted them with.1 And if you sense ill-conduct from your women, advise them ˹first˺, ˹if they persist,˺ do not share their beds, ˹but if they still persist,˺ then discipline them ˹gently˺.2 But if they change their ways, do not be unjust to them. Surely Allah is Most High, All-Great.
— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran
Men are in charge of women1 by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard.2 But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance3 - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them [lightly].4 But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
— Saheeh International

Surah An-Nisa - 1-176

This verse in specific is one of the main references some Islamic scholars use when arguing that men should have the final say in family matters or that women should be obedient to their husbands. While I appreciate different and less sexist interpretations, we can't simply brush the existence of the sexist interpretations under the rug or refuse to address them when someone understandably asks questions related to them.

Furthermore, that this is classified as an authentic/saheeh hadith among mainstream Sunni scholars is cause for concern, in my opinion, since it also gives leverage to the abovementioned sexist interpretations:

Narrated Qays ibn Sa'd:
I went to al-Hirah and saw them (the people) prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, so I said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) has most right to have prostration made before him. When I came to the Prophet (ﷺ), I said: I went to al-Hirah and saw them prostrating themselves before a satrap of theirs, but you have most right, Messenger of Allah, to have (people) prostrating themselves before you. He said: Tell me , if you were to pass my grave, would you prostrate yourself before it? I said: No. He then said: Do not do so. If I were to command anyone to make prostration before another I would command women to prostrate themselves before their husbands, because of the special right over them given to husbands by Allah.

Sunan Abi Dawud 2140 - Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah) - كتاب النكاح - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

There is a reason many progressive Muslims and non-Muslims alike argue that some parts of mainstream Islamic texts and thought need reform. It isn't "bogus apologetics"; it's a simple acknowledgement of the current reality of prevalent thinking among Islamic scholars in various parts of the Muslim world.

Anyway, there are many Muslims around the world who believe the mans say is final. There are many muslims who think women are stupid by nature. But if you go deeper into sociology of religion, this is a causality, not a correlation of societal baggage, and it is universal to all people in the world. For example, in some Buddhist societies the women are considered child bearers and the men are the masters. What?? Where did that come from? Does Buddhism teach anything of the sort? Well, that's a whole other discussion I suppose.

Lets go to the ontology, and since this thread is about Islam, I will discuss the Qur'an with you.

1. NO. The man does not have the last word in "family discussions". There is nothing of the sort in the Qur'an, but the Quran says "Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (30:21)

But of course if you search the internet for "misogyny in Quran" or something you would find verses that helps you with that picture. This is nature apologetics and evangelism. You will find websites that help you with demonising this theology. No problem. Maybe a thread on this is good. But of course some people are there in this forum who would say "no no. I think this verse says women are stupid" and end with their justification which is "in my opinion". You will see.

2. NO. There is a verse that says "bring a witness from the males and two from the females". There are two ways people interpret this. Non-Muslims generally make this "a woman is stupid" so her witness is only half of a man. They have made a mathematical division of two women and one man and come to that very convenient conclusion because of course it helps their cause. There are some Muslims who also come up with the same conclusion because they probably like their women to think they are stupid to fill their ego.

But the verse doesnt say that. Some Muslims interpret it to mean that at the time the witnesses are called for testimony when there is a future dispute since this is a money matter, a woman can get pregnant, or she could be feeding a child, she maybe in labour which are all things not possible for men biologically. So this woman may not be able to come. Thats why two women should be there to witness a financial transaction on record.

I appreciate and respect that your view is less sexist than the mainstream ones I mentioned, although I still find some aspects of it problematic. Nonetheless, as I said, that doesn't mean we should ignore the existence of the more problematic ones.

 

[Tiberius]

Lol. Alright. How about maternity leave? Is there any?

There is; but I'm also of the opinion there should be paternity leave as well.

Many countries do indeed have paternity leave. Which Country Has the Best Paternity Leave? | IRIS FMP

 

[firedragon]

If the women have so many more responsibilities, then why aren't they the ones running things? Let me guess, because they're busy cooking the food, raising the babies and cleaning the house, because that's women's work.

And you don't think men also have responsibilities?

Well. Thats a whole other discussion. Why women are not running things is a completely different topic. Its a good topic, so please do open a new thread on that.

 

[firedragon]

Many countries do indeed have paternity leave. Which Country Has the Best Paternity Leave? | IRIS FMP

Many, if not all countries have paternity leave.

 

[Meow Mix]

Okay. Someone said in this thread. But you see, the Qur'an says "And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with. For the men is a portion of what they earned, and for the women is a portion of what they earned. And ask God from His grace; God is knowledgeable in all things. – Quran 4:32"

What about what Shakeel posted regarding having the second woman there so she can "remind the other if she forgets?" The implications of that one seem pretty clear.

Absolutely not. If you do trust in some of the Islamic history, one of the most prominent and sophisticated scholars of Islam in the earliest times of Islam was a woman. This is the traditional accounts so if you want you can reject it. But its fact. She was supposed to be the most sophisticated in Intelligent Quotient. But this is just history, if you wish as I said you can reject it.

I'll take your word for it; I had only said "maybe," and had only said it may have been demographic (which always has outliers).

I definitely agree. There is no way there is a difference in any kind of intelligence between the sexes. Only thing is, I have read some studies that show women have more capability in multitasking. Also women have better ability of mixing their emotions and rationality better than men. So I believe its like a hand in glove kind of situation. If you ask me for this study, I will have to dig into books so you have to give me time.

I have seen these studies; they are amongst those I was talking about that either mention the social origin of the difference, or have had follow-ups that showed a social origin. It is not true in general that these different capabilities are sex-based; they are a result of social factors.

Sex based policy differences are not essentially sexist. Thats the whole point. It could be, but not necessarily. Immediate judgement of a difference in a sex based policy is unreasonable.

They are sexist by the definition of the term; as we know, dictionaries usually aren't great though. Technically sexism is anything that demarcates between sexes policywise, so this is why I was saying we just need to tack on a term like "justified" or "unjustified."

 

[firedragon]

Not when there are Islamic scholars who teach these kinds of things. Unless you're willing to tell them that their interpretations are "bogus apologetics," you can't really blame a non-Muslim for asking these questions.

You should also understand that there are other Islamic scholars who speak very different. I am not blaming a non-muslim for asking these questions. But most of the questions are not from scholarly sources at all, its from anti islamic websites.

Surah An-Nisa - 1-176

This verse in specific is one of the main references some Islamic scholars use when arguing that men should have the final say in family matters or that women should be obedient to their husbands. While I appreciate different and less sexist interpretations, we can't simply brush the existence of the sexist interpretations under the rug or refuse to address them when someone understandably asks questions related to them.

Furthermore, that this is classified as an authentic/saheeh hadith among mainstream Sunni scholars is cause for concern, in my opinion, since it also gives leverage to the abovementioned sexist interpretations:

Which scholar are you referring to? And you said about a Sahih hadith. Is it also Sarih? Which hadith anyway? Sorry I can't see the exact verse in your link by the way.

Sunan Abi Dawud 2140 - Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah) - كتاب النكاح - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

There is a reason many progressive Muslims and non-Muslims alike argue that some parts of mainstream Islamic texts and thought need reform. It isn't "bogus apologetics"; it's a simple acknowledgement of the current reality of prevalent thinking among Islamic scholars in various parts of the Muslim world.

Most of these cut and pastes are bogus apologetics. I dont mind analysing what scholars say. But take a look at the thread, and the cut and pastes of lists. Its not scholarship, its from apologetic websites. I like to get into specifics of scholarship with whatever anyone is quoting. Thus, it is much better if one verse is taken in context, and said with what methodology it is rendered in a particular way. I hope you understand.

I appreciate and respect that your view is less sexist than the mainstream ones I mentioned, although I still find some aspects of it problematic. Nonetheless, as I said, that doesn't mean we should ignore the existence of the more problematic ones.

See, I am not very appreciative of people making cases based on what they say is "mainstream". There could be many nuances. I appreciate your depth in this matter, but there are many things to consider. Tafseer is most importantly based on Quran bi Quran. So analysis is more important than appealing to authority, favourable or not.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

What about what Shakeel posted regarding having the second woman there so she can "remind the other if she forgets?" The implications of that one seem pretty clear.

Absolutely. The implication is that this is what he thinks of women.

I have seen these studies; they are amongst those I was talking about that either mention the social origin of the difference, or have had follow-ups that showed a social origin. It is not true in general that these different capabilities are sex-based; they are a result of social factors.

I think that summation is questionable. when I find the study, I will quote it to you. Women are more capable of mixing their emotions with their rationality which is supposed to be a biological factor. But see, I am a little outdated so maybe there are new sciences that prove otherwise.

They are sexist by the definition of the term; as we know, dictionaries usually aren't great though. Technically sexism is anything that demarcates between sexes policywise, so this is why I was saying we just need to tack on a term like "justified" or "unjustified."

Well. If the term sexist is as you said, then yes I agree. That would entangle us in a huge problem in usage of the term.

Anyway I am sexist. I have been taught by my society to open doors for women.

 

[Starlight]

- If anybody has any tips on how to best go through about these quotations lemme know.


- First of all, Belief is intrinsic to humans. Any transitive knowledge warrants belief. Denying God is as a matter of course denying the moral, rational & spiritual belief system contingent on God, in favor of another belief system contingent on Nature or Chance (or other forces). Second of all, belief in God is the ultimate fulfillment of our state of being; manifesting in morality in the ultimate justice to which temporal justice is prelude, manifesting in rationality in the perfect expansion of our reason, in our soul's aptness to see the unity in the many –universals– & seeking indefinite explanations, anticipating thus the ultimate unity & the ultimate explanation; manifesting in spirituality in self-annihilation towards unity of being, the perfect self-annihilation is total submission to the One. Human civilization are essentially defined by their interpretation of the divine. Nature as an interpretation is more common than you think. Third of all, doing good things is not about the act, it's about the intention. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said: "actions are but with intentions". We are not accountable for our actions, for these are predetermined, we are accountable for our intentions. Giving charity with arrogance or self-satisfaction may actually be a bad deed, whereas killing a person with the sincere intentions to save another for the sake of God may be a good deed. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "religion is sincerity". There is intention (niyya) in every action we take, either whimsical intention with no actual purpose (hawa), or intentions born of our rational determination (azima) & instinctive desires (shahwa). Therefore every intention is selfish, by design. Sincerity is the unity in intention, not for any selfish reasons, but for the sole sake of God, for God is the sole true benefactor deserving devout gratitude.

**********


- This is loaded! Just like to note that the history goes very far back, not just since Bush Jr. The western antagonism against Islam is as old as Islam, from Charles Martel & Covandoga to the Crusades to the Reconquista to Holy Roman alliance to Colonialism, then most recently American imperialism. It's a long history.

- Islam is essentially about submission to Allah. We believe our souls established a covenan ( Ahd) with Allah to worship only Him. Then brought to this life as delegates ((Khilafa) to Allah in this Earthly domain to settle, cultivate the land & prosper (Istimar). In this life our yearning for God is actually the memory of our covenant, as if something we miss we are incomplete without. This memory is our innate state of being (Fitrah), which manifests in our faculty to seek the divine & recognize it when we see it. This faculty is reason (Aql), gift entrusted to us. We are responsible (Taklif) to uphold that trust (Amana) by preserving our innate state of being (Fitrah) -thus our covenant- until we return to Allah again after death. From this regard, our mission in life as humans is two-fold:

1. A primary individual mission for the soul in her journey towards Allah: we face Allah alone, & no soul bears the sin of another. That is, there is no group damnation or salvation in Islam. Allah alone has the authority to decide on the fate of each; Allah's mercy is infinite & encompasses all things. In this respect, being American or otherwise, being Muslim or otherwise, being a man or otherwise, are just circumstantial accidents; the essence is the soul yearning for her Lord in her own unique journey with her Lord.
2. A collective mission for Mankind to settle & prosper on the Earth to allow for the primary mission to be fulfilled: “This, for the fact that when Allah (swt) created humans to bear al-Amana (the Charge), he bestowed them with Reason & Accountability, so that they may be eligible to assume the rights of God on them. He (swt), then, established for them: Inviolability, Liberty & Ownership so that they may be able to fulfil the Charge they have been assigned with. Further, this Liberty, Inviolability & Ownership is firmly established for all human beings from their birth, the discerning among them or the non-discerning alike.” [Sarakhsi d. 1096] – In this respect, social & political morality (laws & politics) emerges, states get established & borders get set. Having such boundaries & maintaining these boundaries become essential in the pursuit of prosperity on Earth.

- In short, the bad history between the Muslim world & Western world, on one side, is inherent to the relation between the two civilizations, & can only be remedied by restoring justice & mending grievances. Injustice is the transgression against other's boundaries into their own & can only be alleviated by restoring justice, that is restituting those boundaries. On another side, Allah's mission in us is too infinite & our fate too eternal for the West or the entire universe to mean much of anything.


- Islam is about submission to Allah, in recognizing the divine – in His absoluteness, & recognizing the self – in self-annihilation. Failing to realize this is a delusion. A Muslim is not the unsinful person, it's the sinful person in humility with His Lord. In Islam, the greater sin is not in the act of sin, it's in one's arrogance towards Allah. The only possible relationship with Allah, the Creator of All Things, is absolute submission. & Allah's Mercy is infinite, one just has to embrace it, not reject it for the sake of ego. The essence of worship is to stomp the ego.

- Do you mean by transgender intersex or endogeny?

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Waalaykom Salam

- Thank you. Can you elaborate?

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- Yes. The opinion among the scholars of hadith (muhadetheen) is that she was 9 upon, though the more likely opinion is that among the scholars of prophetic biography (sirah), that she was 10. Why?


- Evidently.


- That is the essence of worship.

**********


- What is exactly your belief?

**********


- I can't answer your question. Debating is discouraged in Islam, unless to defend truths & rights. But maybe it's because Muslims are right, they have with which to defend their beliefs better than others.

**********



- Title. Debate.

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What do you believe is the minimum age for marriage in Islam? I hope you agree that child marriage in our world today is wrong?

Some muslims use Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha as an exuse for child marriages (this happen in some islamic countries). And most likely the hadiths about Aisha's age when prophet Muhammad married her is false and fabricated. Many muslim scholars today has found much and good evidence that Aisha was much older when prophet Muhammad constumated the marriage with her.

 

[Meow Mix]

Absolutely. The implication is that this is what he thinks of women.

Shakeel was quoting something though. I'd have to go back, I don't know if that was a Quran quote or a hadith. The bit about one woman reminding the other. Those weren't Shakeel's words.

I think that summation is questionable. when I find the study, I will quote it to you. Women are more capable of mixing their emotions with their rationality which is supposed to be a biological factor. But see, I am a little outdated so maybe there are new sciences that prove otherwise.

I will have to engage in that one tomorrow, getting towards the end of my night shift here. If I can remember where I posted data on this already, I could just c/p it; but I can look stuff up again. Tomorrow for me though. Soon I'll be sitting comfy under the covers, knowing me, probably still posting for a bit (but posting on phone makes it hard to do things like cite sources).

Anyway I am sexist. I have been taught by my society to open doors for women.

How dare you, this is an affront, you shall be tarred and feathered! (I consider this pretty harmless ^.^ Not completely, but there is such a thing as splitting hairs and picking battles, and I do not think this is harmful. Though I hope you would open doors for anyone for instance to be polite?)

 

[oldbadger]

Pantheism?

No.
Deism.

 

[firedragon]

I will have to engage in that one tomorrow, getting towards the end of my night shift here. If I can remember where I posted data on this already, I could just c/p it; but I can look stuff up again. Tomorrow for me though. Soon I'll be sitting comfy under the covers, knowing me, probably still posting for a bit (but posting on phone makes it hard to do things like cite sources).

What? By God. Pretty ladies should not be working night shift. It gives too much heartache to your friends worrying about them. How inconsiderate of you??? Be it women or men, all are affected by it. Everyone will be worrying about you. Tsk tsk.

How dare you, this is an affront, you shall be tarred and feathered! (I consider this pretty harmless ^.^ Not completely, but there is such a thing as splitting hairs and picking battles, and I do not think this is harmful. Though I hope you would open doors for anyone for instance to be polite?)

Yeah. You are right. Being taught to open doors for ladies you get into a habit of opening doors for everyone. And bald old men sometimes do look at you like you're some kind of freak. Yet, not like the younger men. They dont even know if you opened a door or not.