Special Pleading and the Problem of Evil

[Trailblazer]

How does doing this help you, my friend? By turning grief into hatred…?

Grief can rip you in half but hatred leads you to thoughts and actions that spread misery onto and eat at your core, slowly, till there is nothing left of who you were.

It doesn't help, it only makes the grief worse. I know that all to well since most of my life has been suffering, grief and loss.
I blamed God for well over 10 years and I hated God. I still suffer from the residual effects of that hate.

I cannot say if I will ever love God but it is a good day when I even like Him. I will probably continue to work on this for the rest of my life. I know I am wrong because I know God is benevolent, but feelings are not rational.

 

[F1fan]

No, it does not work that way. God and humans are responsible for their own actions. God was responsible for creating the world but God is not responsible for what happened after that since God was out of the game after that.

The problem with this is your claim that God knows everything. God created the humans knowing they would do certain things AS it created the universe. IT'S the creator, IT'S responsible.

You can get off the hook by saying God doesn't know what its creation will evolve into. That way there's some plausible deniability. As long as your God knows it is creating Hitler as part of its creation what Hitler does is on God.

Go to any court if law and tell them God is responsible for all the crimes men commit and see how far you get.

I'm not claiming a God exists. Courts don't recognize gods.

If your God existed i could subpoena it. But courts deal with facts.

Ask any scientist of God is responsible for climate change, earthquakes, tornadoes, or hurricanes.

We are dealing with your religious claims, not science. But notice that science doesn't;t recognize your God or any gods.

If there was a defect in the painting when it was created the painter would be liable but there was no defect in humans when they were created. Nice try.

Sorry but since the artist is an analogy for your God the artist had full knowledge of what it was doing, just like your God supposedly did. This excuse doesn't work.

You can get off the hook off your God is fallible and makes mistakes. Want to do that? Or does your God know what it's doing when it creates something, including that Hitler will be a reality?

 

[Trailblazer]

It was a big mistake for God to create the devil. Embarrassing.

There is no devil. That is just a Christian belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem with this is your claim that God knows everything. God created the humans knowing they would do certain things AS it created the universe. IT'S the creator, IT'S responsible.

If you think I am going down the illogical road of "God knows so God is responsible" on another thread, think again.
You will have to find some other poor sap if you want to sell that bill of goods.

And the weatherman is also responsible for the hurricane because he knew it was coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry but since the artist is an analogy for your God the artist had full knowledge of what it was doing,

God sure did know...You have to know what you're doing to create a world.

And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. ... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The Creation, according to the Book of Genesis
Too bad man messed up God's good creation after God made it.
And that is supposed to be God's fault exactly WHY?

 

[Trailblazer]

The topic is this: it’s possible for an omnipotent and omniscient being to make “points” without causing unspeakable suffering. So why does such suffering exist unless the being in question simply isn’t benevolent?

That is the nature if this material world, it is a storehouse of suffering. God does not cause the suffering "on purpose." If you want to blame God for anything you can blame God for creating this kind of world. On the other hand, if you blame God for the suffering then it is only fair to give God credit for all the good things in this world, things you enjoy.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions. Thus it is seen that some, under extreme pressure of anguish, have committed suicide.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, she is the one dying in pain. After only a few glimpses into life.

Anyone doing tests using the lives of innocents is a monster. Period. His only excuse is, if any, is to not exist.

I do not believe that God uses innocents to test us. In fact, I do not believe that God sends us tests deliberately, not anymore. I used to believe that and for 10 years I hated God. I never fully recovered from believing that and I believed it because a believer told me God does that and I was naive back then so I just believed it. To this day I cannot love God because of this experience.

This believer also told me my sister was dying of cancer because she was not serving the Cause of God so there was no reason for her to remain in this world. The fact was that my sister was selflessly taking care of her only daughter who was her life while that believer had abandoned his only daughter after she was born and ran off and got married to another woman after he had his marriage annulled. Then 28 years later after his second wife died he went looking fir his daughter and found her hoping to have a relationship with her because he was lonely.

Well, I may as well tell you that believer was my older brother who is also a Baha'i and he told me God was killing all my cats to teach me a lesson, and I am supposed to love a God that would do that? No, I hated God and wanted nothing to do with Him or the religion I belong to for 10 years. This happened about 20 years ago and I did not know the Baha'i Writings very well back then so I believed this man. Then after that I joined the Planet Baha'i forum in 2013 and started learning about God and what my religion really teaches and I started to recover.

Then a few years ago after I joined this forum another Baha'i started in on the same thing, saying God is sending us tests our own benefit. This time I fought back because I had enough knowledge to fight with. These believers have no idea the damage they do to other believers and they don't care. All they care about are their beliefs, or might I say what they believe their scriptures mean. God does not have to send us tests, there are enough tests in this world already. Thank God I have always had one close Baha'i friend, Truthseeker9, who was never judgmental of me when I hated God and has been there for me through thick and thin, ever since I met him on Planet Baha'i.

Anyway, I diverged. I was going to say that according to my religion innocent children who die before they have had a chance to live this life are fully recompensed by God in the afterlife.

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240

 

[Trailblazer]

What a vile and wicked god you describe... one who 'tests' people by tormenting parents with the horrible death of their child. Why would anyone worship a being with such a despicable message?

It's a good thing God does not really do that, some believers just "believe" that God does that.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not the message.
Muslims' children go to paradise.

What about the other children? Where do they go?

 

[Trailblazer]

Seems like Adolph had a guardian angel.

He might have had one in this life but he won't have one in hell as there are no angels there.

 

[Trailblazer]

Special pleading is a fallacy of inconsistency: where under one set of circumstances, one conclusion might be drawn; while under another, a different conclusion might be drawn.

The special pleading is that God could literally do anything and the theodicist would never find it anything other than benevolent: that is special pleading.

The special pleading is that God could literally do anything and the atheist would never find it anything other than malevolent: that is special pleading.

 

[Trailblazer]

KJ21
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

F1fan said: even the Bible says God is both good and evil...

74x12 said: Please show the scripture?

That verse does not say God IS evil. Better luck next time.

 

[Trailblazer]

The major flaw here is that if God kills children for some reason that only it knows, why bother letting it get born at all?

Please let me know when you catch God killing any children, if you can locate Him on your GPS tracker.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you think there can be hidden wisdom behind killing a child with cancer?

Please let me know when you catch God killing any children, if you can locate God in your GPS tracker.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would we need to give up free will to prevent all suffering?

Because as long as people have free will to make choices, some people will choose to do evil.

 

[Shakeel]

What about the other children? Where do they go?

The scholars differed concerning this matter, and there are several views: That they will be in Paradise. Some of them said, they will be in al-A’raaf [a place between Paradise and Hell]. And the reason why it was said that they will be in Paradise is because this is the ultimate destiny of the people of al-A’raaf. This is the view of the majority of scholars, as reported from them by Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr in al-Tamheed, 18/96.
(...)
That they will be tested in the Hereafter, and whoever obeys Allaah will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys Him will enter Hell. This is the view of the majority of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, as transmitted by Abu’l-Hasan al-Ash’ari, and it is the opinion of al-Bayhaqi and many other researchers. It is also the opinion favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah. He said that this is what is implied by the texts of Imaam Ahmad, and is the view regarded as most correct by al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer. He said: this view reconciles all the reports, and all the ahaadeeth quoted above support one another. Al-Tafseer, 3/31.
Will children who die young go to Paradise or Hell? - Islam Question & Answer

 

[QuestioningMind]

It's a good thing God does not really do that, some believers just "believe" that God does that.

I can only go by what believers claim to believe. That's the thing about believers, they ALL claim know what god really does and doesn't do, but rarely agree on what that is. Leads some of us to suspect that maybe there isn't really any god to know anything about.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please let me know when you catch God killing any children, if you can locate God in your GPS tracker.

Oh, I think the God @Shakeel and I were talking about doesn't exist. The thing I care about is the implication that the wisest course of action is sometimes to kill a child.

That's the part that can have implications for the real world.

 

[F1fan]

F1fan said: even the Bible says God is both good and evil...

74x12 said: Please show the scripture?

That verse does not say God IS evil. Better luck next time.

It says God created evil, so evil exists. And as we can read in the stories God is quite evil in what it does. Wiping out whole civilizations. Wiping out the whole planet with a flood. Nice gods don't do that.

 

[F1fan]

Because as long as people have free will to make choices, some people will choose to do evil.

But since God knows what everyone will do before they do it, just as created, people don't have free will. God created a world where pedophiles exist and act on their impulse. Why?