Why i'm against sex before marriage

[Trailblazer]

That's the neat thing; I'm not. I'm criticizing your dismissal of the Old Testament when you formerly held the Quran in elevated regard, despite their similar nature of authorship. And your continued dismissal of the nature of the Old Testament's deliverance, despite the prophets being of "equal status".

I already explained why I consider the Qur'an more authentic than the Bible, I trust the Guardian of the Bahai Faith.
I should know the Qur'an but I don't know the Qura'n because I never had time to read it so I did not know anything was anthropomorphic in it.

If by deliverance you mean authenticity (of known authorship) the Writings of Baha'u'llah beat any other scriptures hands down since He wrote His own scriptures and we have the originals at the Baha'i World Centre in Haifa, Israel in the International Archives Building.

 

[Trailblazer]

Rather, supporting scripture for the formula of Trinitarianism doctrine - and thus the belief that Jesus is one and the same with god - lie in Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:13, 1 Corinthians 12:4-5, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2 and Revelation 1:4-5.

I looked at all those verses and I did not see any support for Jesus is one and the same with God.

 

[Valjean]

You said marriage arrangements so I thought you meant that. Marriage is a contract, not just a random word to replace "relationship with fornication and ******* children"

Marriage is a contract in Abrahamic religions. Do you think it's a contract amongst all peoples?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Can't even back up your own claims. Unsurprising, yet still disappointing.

Now for facts. The first seven Ecumenical Councils - more specifically the First Council of Nicaea in 10,325 HE and the Third Council of Constantinople in 10,680 - sought to establish the Divine nature of Jesus. While some believe John 1 to lend to Trinitarianism, major contributors to Trinitarianism - Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas - reject statements in John as Jesus speaking on his humanity. Rather, supporting scripture for the formula of Trinitarianism doctrine - and thus the belief that Jesus is one and the same with god - lie in Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:13, 1 Corinthians 12:4-5, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2 and Revelation 1:4-5. While contributors to the doctrine, nowhere in the New Testament is the divinity of Jesus clearly and undoubtedly stated.

I don’t even look at what councils or other people believe the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ because it’s clear to me that Jesus Christ is God from reading the Gospels. Actually I got saved and knew Jesus Christ was God by someone sharing the Gospel with me, I received Jesus Christ and then started reading the Bible and the Holy Spirit taught me and continues to teach me. You state facts about a council that has nothing to do with what I believe about Jesus Christ. Instead of admitting you’re wrong you continue in your folly.
If you want to switch gears and want me to prove to you Jesus Christ is God, then I would say I can’t, only God can do that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Can't even back up your own claims. Unsurprising, yet still disappointing.

Your claim - Christians believe Jesus is God because of what a council said.
My claim - I believe Jesus is God because of what the Bible says and one of them is John 1, not because of a Council but what the Holy Spirit taught me.
Instead of understanding this you go on for, could be days I imagine, trying to prove some other point.

 

[Polymath257]

Bs.

It's a risk reduction measure.

Yes. No vaccine is absolute. But the evidence that almost all new infections and hospitalizations occur among those not vaccinated shows the vaccinations are effective.

Synthetic means are never as effective as natural means.

Simply false. That is why we no longer have smallpox and mostly don't need to worry about polio. Vaccinations are often better than the naturally produced immunity.

It just offers a venue of less risk as opposed to the real thing in promoting antibodies which are no better or less as a result of exposure.

Different antibodies *do* carry different levels of protection. That is because they atatck different proteins on the virus and some are more accessible than others.

I'm sure there is plenty of ongoing debate among the experts even.

Which you ignore.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I looked at all those verses and I did not see any support for Jesus is one and the same with God.

They don't directly say that Jesus is god, but they are the verses as agreed upon that provide the theological foundation for Trinitarianism. Matt 28:19 identifies the three "persons" of god, 2 Corinthians 13:14 (my mistake there) identifies them as well. 1 Corinthians 12 backs up the relationship between them, Ephesians 4 as well while also solidifying the stance of Monotheism, and also 1 Peter 1. Ironically these are all letters from Paul, of whom Modern Christians take more following than they recognize. Lastly Revelations 1 elevates Jesus with a bunch of titles, maintaining him on level with god.

I don’t even look at what councils or other people believe the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ because it’s clear to me that Jesus Christ is God from reading the Gospels.

And what's truly ironic is that the only reason you have those Gospels is because of those Councils that you are hellbent on ignoring. I'd wager you've never heard of the following books, letters, and gospel accounts not found in your trimmed and narrated version: The Gospel of the Ebionites, The Gospel of the Hebrews, The Gospel of the Nazarenes, Gospel of Marcion, Gospel of Mani, Gospel of Apelles, Gospel of Bardesanes, Gospel of Basilides, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Nicodemus, Gospel of Bartholomew, Gospel of Truth, Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter, Letter of Lentulus, Pistis Sophia, Second Treatise of the Great Seth, Acts of Andrew, Acts of Barnabas, Acts of John, Acts of Mar Mari, Acts of the Martyrs, Acts of Paul, Acts of Paul and Thecla, Acts of Peter, Acts of Peter and Andrew, Acts of Peter and Paul, Acts of Peter and the Twelve, Acts of Philip, Acts of Pilate, Acts of Thomas, Acts of Timothy, Acts of Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca, Epistle of Barnabas, Epistles of Clement, Epistle of the Corinthians to Paul, Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians, Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, Epistle to Diognetus, Epistle to the Laodiceans, Epistle to Seneca the Younger, Third Epistle to the Corinthians, Apocalypse of Paul, Apocalypse of Peter, Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius, Apocalypse of Thomas, Apocalypse of Stephen, First Apocalypse of James, Second Apocalypse of James, Second Apocalypse of John, and The Shepherd of Hermas.

You state facts about a council that has nothing to do with what I believe about Jesus Christ.

On the contrary, they have everything to do with what you believe about Jesus. Because the whole narrative of your gospel - which you state here, is where you learned of Jesus - was carefully pruned and structured to illustrate that belief for you. Do you honestly think the Gospel of Matthew is any different than the Gospel of Peter? That the Acts of the Apostles cover everything that they did, without mention of the Acts of Andrew, or Peter? Do you think the nations that Paul fired off his letters to never wrote back, and just accepted his ramblings?

Much of your church history has been kept from you, and you believe only what you're told.

 

[ElishaElijah]

ramblings

You’re just rambling, when I got saved and started ready the Bible the Holy Spirit taught me and He was confirming the Truth of Scripture. Had nothing to do with what you’re saying. Ultimately it’s the Holy Spirit working through men is how we got the Scriptures. Then there’s the OT declaring the coming of the Son of God:
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Omg, I wish you people would stop derailing this thread. Go take this religious arguing to another thread.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You’re just rambling,‬‬

Remain ignorant, then. No skin off my back.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And what's truly ironic is that the only reason you have those Gospels is because of those Councils that you are hellbent on ignoring

Why would you say I’m ignoring? I’m telling you how I came to know and understand that Jesus is God. You’re making a different assumption on how believers come to that understanding. My understanding came from me reading the Bible not from a council. Why don’t you see that?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Remain ignorant, then. No skin off my back.

Ignorant of what, how I came to know Jesus is God? I just told you

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Women who are married have abortions too.

This is why sex education is so important

 

[Trailblazer]

Why would you say I’m ignoring? I’m telling you how I came to know and understand that Jesus is God. You’re making a different assumption on how believers come to that understanding. My understanding came from me reading the Bible not from a council. Why don’t you see that?

Your belief that Jesus is God came from your interpretation of some verses in John 1, not from any of the other Gospels. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." do not mean that Jesus is God. There are other explanations for what these verses mean.

If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?

During his lifetime, Jesus himself didn't call himself God and didn't consider himself God, and ... none of his disciples had any inkling at all that he was God. ...

You do find Jesus calling himself God in the Gospel of John, or the last Gospel. Jesus says things like, "Before Abraham was, I am." And, "I and the Father are one," and, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." These are all statements you find only in the Gospel of John, and that's striking because we have earlier gospels and we have the writings of Paul, and in none of them is there any indication that Jesus said such things. ...

I think it's completely implausible that Matthew, Mark and Luke would not mention that Jesus called himself God if that's what he was declaring about himself. That would be a rather important point to make. This is not an unusual view amongst scholars; it's simply the view that the Gospel of John is providing a theological understanding of Jesus that is not what was historically accurate.

If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then there’s the OT declaring the coming of the Son of God:
“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Jesus was the Son of God but the Son of God is not God, He is the Son of God.
Besides, those verses are not about Jesus because Jesus is not the Wonderful Counselor, the Prince of Peace or the Lord of Hosts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Omg, I wish you people would stop derailing this thread. Go take this religious arguing to another thread.

I suggested starting a new thread yesterday and now there is a thread someone started where this can be discussed, if anyone wants to continue talking about it:

Question to Christians: is Jesus Yahweh?

 

[Valjean]

Would continue in a different thread but the point I was making is if we use the same logic with Covid Virus as sexually transmitted disease and the death of a child in the womb then any potential spread of those viruses, which can be life long and fatal as well then you would have to mandate contraception for everyone who is sexually active, mandatory vaccines of some sort to prevent disease. Doesn’t sound rational to mandate any of those things yet people push one but not the other. Then there’s the people saying if you are advocating for sex inside of the marriage covenant as the best practice that we are saying sex is bad. On the contrary, I’ve found sex in marriage to be one of the greatest experiences, I am one with my wife “working on the emotional side” but physically and spiritually one with her and the children that bear our likeness is so awesome. Without knowing God and following His direction in the area of sex I would’ve never known and experienced this.

These things are not equivalent. Resistance and antibody response is a matter of physiology, not logic or principle.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Yes what i wrote in this tread is the only reason i'm against sex before marriage

The problem is that statistically, the fastest way to become a grandparent is to teach abstinence only and it’s hypocritical for Christians to teach it considering that Jesus is born of a virgin girl.

 

[Alex22]

This is why sex education is so important

Yes isn't the southern states, where abstinence is widely taught have the most teen pregnancies and abortions or something.

 

[Truthseeker]

Why get the government involved? The only reasons I can think of are things like survivor benefits and insurance.

People change over time. And they *should* change over time. Especially for those who are young, committing to a lifetime relationship with no prior experience seems insane.

You should get to know the character of the person. It can be done without marrying a person. The usual ritual of dating doesn't do that I know. Each person in dating usually shows a side they want the other side to see. They can work together in doing things. That's a good way to show problems if they are there. They should definitely talk about how many kids they want, how they want to raise the kids, and practical aspects of marriage beforehand.

People change over time, but love shouldn't be based on passing commonalities. It shouldn't be based on romantic love, but have a spiritual basis.

The fourth is the love of man for man. The love which exists between the hearts of believers is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the waves of one sea, this love will make them all the stars of one heaven and the fruits of one tree. This love will bring the realization of true accord, the foundation of real unity.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Paris Talks", 58.7

But the love which sometimes exists between friends is not (true) love, because it is subject to transmutation; this is merely fascination. As the breeze blows, the slender trees yield. If the wind is in the East the tree leans to the West, and if the wind turns to the West the tree leans to the East. This kind of love is originated by the accidental conditions of life. This is not love, it is merely acquaintanceship; it is subject to change.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Paris Talks", 58.8