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Was Jesus Perfect

ecco

Veteran Member
Perhaps Jesus was using it as an opportunity for onlookers to learn and understand that the demons are going to end up dead.

Stop making up stories or rationales. Just read scripture to know what really happened.

33And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils. 34And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

They wanted no part of him. They wanted him to depart!

So, Jesus also was not a very good teacher.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Human life will always be more valuable then the lives of animals.

Do you also believe it's OK that man killed 90% of whales for oil?

Do JW's care about nature at all? Do JW's accept the science of climate change and man's involvement with that?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Organizations are created by followers, all are to blame.
No. Organizations are started by one or a few men. Then come the followers.

Bahai was started by one man.
Mormonism was started by one man.
Jehovah's Witnesses was started by one man.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I'm not advocating pure reason. I'm advocating using reason in place of faith. Both are means of deciding what is true about the world, the value of which is in deciding what course of action will facilitate your tastes, desires, dreams, and emotions. Managing life in a way that facilitates desirable experiences and minimizes the undesirable ones is our primary goal in life, not reasoning. Reasoning is a means to achieve and preserve that goal. Or faith. Take your pick.

I just finished watching a true crime television show about an elderly man that was robbed of his fifteen million dollars by a psychic. He had faith in her honesty. He trusted her by faith rather than evidence. He didn't reason. He didn't seek evidence. And he got fleeced. Once, his emotional status was excellent. He was financially secure, at peace, and living the life of a tree farmer in Oregon who was well-liked by those who knew him.

Now, he's broke, alone, financially insecure, and feeling like an old fool because he made decisions based on faith rather than reason applied to evidence. That's what reason is good for, and why it should always be the method one used to make decisions. But it is not an end. It is the means to an end.

The emotions are a horse, reason the reins. Emotions are the color palette, reason the artist who manipulates the colors and gives them meaning. Reason is the gardener that arranges the landscaping to be beautiful and functional.

Thought serves feeling. Feeling is where we live. Without it, reason cannot serve us. Without feeling, people often want to die, even if the reasoning faculty remains intact. It's useless without feelings to shape.

So no to a world of pure reason, and yes to a world of good experiences thanks to reasoning well.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/psychic-stole-millions-dollars-oregon-timber-heir/story?id=31364199
The victim of the scam placed his faith in a man/woman, not God.

In Hebrews 11, we have a list of individuals who followed God faithfully, and in each case they found that their faith was rewarded. Why should I disbelieve this? My own experience of following Jesus Christ is that he rewards faithfulness and humility.

Now, from what you have argued, you must believe that you reason well. Can I assume, therefore, that you live in a world of good experiences?

Ephesians 2:8. 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:'
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
you must believe that you reason well. Can I assume, therefore, that you live in a world of good experiences?

Yes. My life is easy and trouble-free, and has been for over a decade. Much of that is good luck, like enjoying good health, being born in the right time and place with multiple advantages, and coming from a good family that gave me a good start. That's just good fortune.

But some is due to making good decisions - good career choice, working hard, saving, and learning how to deal with people in a way that avoided blood feuds and run-ins with the law. I avoided addictions other than cigarettes, which I fixed decades ago.

As far as reasoning well, there's nothing special about how I approached life. Millions of people have learned the same habits of thought and have similar values. They question claims, believe no more than the evidence supports, learn the logical fallacies and how to avoid them, and the like. Acquire an education. Combine that knowledge with compassion.

Know what's valuable and worth pursuing. Live with integrity (be honest, responsible, courageous, benevolent, kind, etc.). Recognize and control destructive urges and impulses. Be a good citizen and friend. Recognize and learn from mistakes. Avoid unnecessary attachment. Avoid excessive debt if possible. Cooperate in your relationships.

You know - the usual rules for having the best chance to obtain desired outcomes, including living a relatively smooth, stable, comfortable, stress-free life. As you can see, it's not all reasoning, but it all involves reasoning and none in faith. Reason and experience reveal that these things bring the greatest chance to create happiness and satisfaction in our lives.
 

idea

Question Everything
I have been taught that the actions of the Holy Spirit are always in accordance with scripture and with love. You can't go far wrong when ...

You have missed the point. You can go far wrong when thinking feelings come from God. God does not talk to anyone, you do not have "the spirit", no one does, all lean to their own understanding.
 

idea

Question Everything
Why do you think Jesus had pity for them? After all, they wanted to avoid being drowned by going into the pigs and still got drowned. To me it sounds quite ironical and, in a way, they made fools of themselves.

They begged him that he would not command them to go into the abyss.
Luke 8:31

The demons came out from the man, and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake, and were drowned.
Luke 8:33

I think they got what they deserved and I don’t see pity in that.

You purposefully skipped 32
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

The Devils besought Jesus, and Jesus followed what they asked. It is very clear, Jesus caved in to the Devils.

It is a common tale, someone is busted, then makes you feel sorry for them, talks you into reducing their penalty, and when consequences are not dished out, re-peat offender. Moral of the story, do not do what Jesus did, do not cave in when the devils cry... full consequences are needed to curb behavior... that mercy stuff? it does not work.
 
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idea

Question Everything
This really confuses me. You really read that story of Jesus not calling his angels down to protect himself from death, as a call to join the military? The whole story in the gospels constantly contrasts Jesus' way, against that of the Zealots, who were military. "Greater love has no man than this; that he lay down his life for another", is hardly the motto of the Marines. :) Not sure how you are seeing this. I've never read it like that, even as a novice.

These are all military quotes:
"Live free or die"
"Dead upon the field of glory, Hero fit for song and story."
sacrifice your life for your country
The dead soldier's silence sings our national anthem.
etc. etc.
from Harakiri/Seppuku of Japan, to 911...

Killing yourself is taught as an honorable thing by governments needing to maintain their power. I think the original idea of the atonement was a military story. Kill yourself to save others is what everyone in the military agrees to do.

Haha, I will be stubborn on this one, living for a cause is more honorable than killing yourself. The greatest love is not dying for someone, it is living with them, spending time with them, understanding them, becoming one with them. Death does not show love. Life is needed for love. :)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
You Lie about Jesus
Except for the first example. It is just my personal independent belief that this example was made up. Other Baha'is have tried to explain to me that this was symbolic, and what they said didn't make sense to me. The central figures of the Baha'i Faith didn't address this incident.

The rest don't sound familiar at all.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes. My life is easy and trouble-free, and has been for over a decade. Much of that is good luck, like enjoying good health, being born in the right time and place with multiple advantages, and coming from a good family that gave me a good start. That's just good fortune.

But some is due to making good decisions - good career choice, working hard, saving, and learning how to deal with people in a way that avoided blood feuds and run-ins with the law. I avoided addictions other than cigarettes, which I fixed decades ago.

As far as reasoning well, there's nothing special about how I approached life. Millions of people have learned the same habits of thought and have similar values. They question claims, believe no more than the evidence supports, learn the logical fallacies and how to avoid them, and the like. Acquire an education. Combine that knowledge with compassion.

Know what's valuable and worth pursuing. Live with integrity (be honest, responsible, courageous, benevolent, kind, etc.). Recognize and control destructive urges and impulses. Be a good citizen and friend. Recognize and learn from mistakes. Avoid unnecessary attachment. Avoid excessive debt if possible. Cooperate in your relationships.

You know - the usual rules for having the best chance to obtain desired outcomes, including living a relatively smooth, stable, comfortable, stress-free life. As you can see, it's not all reasoning, but it all involves reasoning and none in faith. Reason and experience reveal that these things bring the greatest chance to create happiness and satisfaction in our lives.

Jesus said, 'Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now : for ye shall laugh.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets'. [Luke 6]

It's understandable that you should want to get the most out of this short earthly life, but that's because you see no other life. No other life is apparent to your reason.

So, am l to conclude that your purpose in life is to make yourself as comfortable as possible until the day that death takes you away?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You have missed the point. You can go far wrong when thinking feelings come from God. God does not talk to anyone, you do not have "the spirit", no one does, all lean to their own understanding.
The Bible is a product of the Holy Spirit, lMO. Did the prophets fail to hear God's words? Did the prophets speak falsely? Or do the forty plus prophets of the Bible present a coherent and consistent message?

The Bible, l would say, is a coherent and consistent prophecy. To me, it is evidence that God can be heard, and that His words can be communicated through the Spirit.
 

Bree

Active Member
Do you also believe it's OK that man killed 90% of whales for oil?

Do JW's care about nature at all? Do JW's accept the science of climate change and man's involvement with that?

i'd prefer that man didnt kill any animals tbh.

In fact, mankind were never supposed to eat the flesh of animals. It was not Gods intention for animals to be hunted and killled and eaten. This is the result of mankind turning away from God and his righteous standards.

When all mankind are back to obeying God his laws and the rulership of Jesus Christ, then animal slaughter will come to its end.

Why do I believe this? Because I believe what the bible says "Look I am making all things new"
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Except for the first example. It is just my personal independent belief that this example was made up. Other Baha'is have tried to explain to me that this was symbolic, and what they said didn't make sense to me. The central figures of the Baha'i Faith didn't address this incident.

The rest don't sound familiar at all.
It was the demons that killed the pigs, not Jesus.
So no, the first example is not true.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
i'd prefer that man didnt kill any animals tbh.

In fact, mankind were never supposed to eat the flesh of animals. It was not Gods intention for animals to be hunted and killled and eaten. This is the result of mankind turning away from God and his righteous standards.

When all mankind are back to obeying God his laws and the rulership of Jesus Christ, then animal slaughter will come to its end.


Oh, right! Bring it all back to Original Sin. Your Omnipotent God created A&E to his exacting specifications. Your Omniscient God knew they would disobey Him. Just as he planned.

But, somehow my eating a hamburger is the fault of A&E.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus said, 'Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now : for ye shall laugh.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets'. [Luke 6]

Can I presume from this that you understood me to say that I want to be rich, and that you and Jesus are warning me that it is better to be poor? If so, you just transformed advice about knowing what to value, avoiding unnecessary attachments, and living with integrity as a lust for money. This is an example of what I was criticizing about faith-based thinking. You believed something about me not only in the absence of evidence, but despite contradictory evidence.

Maybe you didn't understand when I told you that I am happy with how my life is. I'm not looking for life advice. I consider myself to be in a better position to give life advice, but I won't. Beside being presumptuous, it would be as pointless offering you values that don't come out of scripture as it was for you to reproduce scripture for me that you already know is not a source I value. You might have seen my earlier post on this thread outlining what I considered departures from perfection by Jesus, and here are more. To me, there is nothing blessed about weeping or getting the last laugh, nor in being disesteemed by the people around you, nor in disesteeming their respect yourself.

It's understandable that you should want to get the most out of this short earthly life, but that's because you see no other life. No other life is apparent to your reason. So, am l to conclude that your purpose in life is to make yourself as comfortable as possible until the day that death takes you away?

You seem to see yourself as a visionary - someone who sees further - and me as a philosophically and spiritually blighted atheist who missed the real meaning of life and lives for base pleasures.

What do you think I think about a person who spends most of his time looking past life to an imagined afterlife that he has no reason to expect he will see, like somebody waiting at a cosmic bus stop waiting for somebody to carry him off to a place he'd rather be because he has been told to remain detached from the world and to not value it or the ways of man?

What do you think the message is that you send when you imply that life without this god belief and hope for an afterlife is empty? Do you think you make me feel like you have something I would want? My life feels full and meaningful as it is. Why would I want to trade that in for a world view that teaches discontent about life and views it not as a gift in itself, but as a kind of audition for a part in heaven?
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Can I presume from this that you understood me to say that I want to be rich, and that you and Jesus are warning me that it is better to be poor? If so, you just transformed advice about knowing what to value, avoiding unnecessary attachments, and living with integrity as a lust for money. This is an example of what I was criticizing about faith-based thinking. You believed something about me not only in the absence of evidence, but despite contradictory evidence.

Maybe you didn't understand when I told you that I am happy with how my life is. I'm not looking for life advice. I consider myself to be in a better position to give life advice, but I won't. Beside being presumptuous, it would be as pointless offering you values that don't come out of scripture as it was for you to reproduce scripture for me that you already know is not a source I value. You might have seen my earlier post on this thread outlining what I considered departures from perfection by Jesus, and here are more. To me, there is nothing blessed about weeping or getting the last laugh, nor in being disesteemed by the people around you, nor in disesteeming their respect yourself.



You seem to see yourself as a visionary - someone who sees further - and me as a philosophically and spiritually blighted atheist who missed the real meaning of life and lives for base pleasures.

What do you think I think about a person who spends most of his time looking past life to an imagined afterlife that he has no reason to expect he will see, like somebody waiting at a cosmic bus stop waiting for somebody to carry him off to a place he'd rather be because he has been told to remain detached from the world and to not value it or the ways of man?

What do you think the message is that you send when you imply that life without this god belief and hope for an afterlife is empty? Do you think you make me feel like you have something I would want? My life feels full and meaningful as it is. Why would I want to trade that in for a world view that teaches discontent about life and views it not as a gift in itself, but as a kind of audition for a part in heaven?

I hear you saying, 'My life feels full and meaningful as it is'. But, from a position of faith in Jesus it will not remain that way! Jesus was sent to save the lost, not take away their contentment.

Jesus said, 'Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was built upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.'

It does not say IF the flood comes, but WHEN the flood comes.

1 John 2:15-17. 'Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.'
 

1213

Well-Known Member
You purposefully skipped 32
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
...

Yes, because it doesn’t really change that they wanted to avoid drowning and still got drowned.
 

Bree

Active Member
Oh, right! Bring it all back to Original Sin. Your Omnipotent God created A&E to his exacting specifications. Your Omniscient God knew they would disobey Him. Just as he planned.

But, somehow my eating a hamburger is the fault of A&E.

so you eat meat but demand to know if Jw's care about animals being killed?

You obviously dont mind animals being killed, so lets not make an argument of it.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It was the demons that killed the pigs, not Jesus.
So no, the first example is not true.
Well, I don't believe in demons as the Baha'i Faith teaches, which is why I question demons entering pigs as being history. It is also well known that the Gospels was written down at least a couple of decades after Jesus lived. Call it rationalizing if you wish, or someone else wishes. We do agree that the first example is not true. Salutations!
 
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