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Was Jesus Perfect

idea

Question Everything
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
He also taught his disciples to break Shabbat.

He taught his followers to abandon their livelihoods and love him more than their parents.

He called his mother 'woman' and effectively abandoned them; his family thought he was crazy.

He went on a rampage with a whip.

He possibly practiced sorcery.

He allowed himself to be put to death - also a sin if it can be prevented.

I'll take Osir or Inpu over him any day.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Why feed it? How is sophomoric Jesus-bashing any more worthy of being taken seriously than is sophomoric bible-basing in general?
It's really not. I'm honestly just kind of bored. I also would like to see some answers to my queries.
 

idea

Question Everything
The question is: will the answers to your questions be worth your consideration.

Sure, I suspect it will be something like "mercy, even for devils", problem 8s, I have experienced what "mercy for abusers"= allow children continued suffering means. When choosing between mercy for abusers and mercy for victims, I would hope mercy for victims would win.

He is no "Savior" if mercy goes to "sinners" over the innocent.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.

The scriptures are quite clear about the person of Jesus Christ. He 'knew no sin' [2 Corinthians 5:21]; and it was he 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth' [1 Peter 2:22]

The world is constantly trying to make good appear evil, and evil appear good.

Yes, IMO, Jesus was perfect because his faith was faultless, and he did as he was instructed by his Father. According to the scriptures, Jesus never strayed from the path laid out for him. Can this be said of any other man or woman?
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Was Jesus Perfect

Doesn't matter. As nothing else in this world, is. And we are living in this world.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding

b) tortured and killed innocent animals

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.
That's the best you have?
You know that pigs were considered unclean right?
And he didn't kill the pigs, the demons did.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Sure, I suspect it will be something like "mercy, even for devils", problem 8s, I have experienced what "mercy for abusers"= allow children continued suffering means. When choosing between mercy for abusers and mercy for victims, I would hope mercy for victims would win.

He is no "Savior" if mercy goes to "sinners" over the innocent.
I'm sure glad the thread isn't about agenda-driven Jesus-bashing.

Oh, well ... as a Jew he's not my savior either, so I guess I'll leave this "debate" to others. Meanwhile, may you find it cathartic and @Rival informative. Sadly, I suspect that both of you will be disappointed.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Was Jesus Perfect

Doesn't matter. As nothing else in this world, is. And we are living in this world.

I would say that it does matter. God is perfect and Holy, and without God we, who are imperfect, are lost.

Jesus, we are told, was the perfect Son of God, making him the only acceptable sacrifice for sin.

Acts 3:14,15. 'But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.'

As the scriptures tell us, only through the risen Christ do we have access to God's kingdom, and to eternal life.

John 14:6. 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me'.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He also taught his disciples to break Shabbat.
Since you were bored and are interested in responses to these, I'll give it a shot, as I'm filling some time having my morning tea.

He taught them that the "Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath." This was to teach that those who think "loving God" means obeying dietary laws and days of observance are missing the point. The sabbath isn't something you observe because it's important to God. It was made as a day of rest for humans. If circumstances, such as his disciples having no food and being hungry, means they cannot eat because it's the Sabbath day and they can't pick wheat, that's a wrong application of what the law is for.

It's not because it matters to God, and just as David got sacred bread from the high priest on the Sabbath to feed his men on the Sabbath, Jesus was illustrating common sense and grace over legalism. He wasn't teaching "disobey the law", but rather using a little common sense and not having the incorrect idea that these laws are to please God, as if someone God is concerned about days of the week as God.

And if that wasn't enough, the author made it clear it didn't matter to God by having Jesus then say, that as the Son of Man, he says it doesn't. In other words, the Lord of the Sabbath was there and said its okay, don't worry about it. He gave them permission, since he was the author of the law anyway, just in case someone was still worried about it and not understanding why it didn't really matter under the circumstances, based on the logical rationale he had just explained.

The story was to teach the foundation Christian principle about love and grace, over law and legalism as the path to God. Days of the week are important to man, not to God. Don't bend the rules in a religion, into making them about the nature of God. Religion is for man, not for God. God has no need of religion himself.

He taught his followers to abandon their livelihoods and love him more than their parents.
And of course there are principles here that are being trodden underfoot by a strained reading of the text. Anyone who is truly on a path to the Divine, in fact does need to place the love of God ahead of all other interests in life. If you are to love your parents and your neighbor as yourself, as Jesus cleary teaches, then you have to love God first before all else, because God is the Source of Love. It's like going to the well for water. If you don't care for that well before all else, you'll soon all suffer and dies from a lack of water.

To "hate" your parents is not an actual injunction, as that would violate his teaching that Love is the fulfillment of all of the law and prophets. It's meant as a 'by comparison'. It's hyperbole, 'as wide as the oceans, as high as the skies," not literalism.

He called his mother 'woman' and effectively abandoned them; his family thought he was crazy.
So, you wish to take modern American, relatively recent and barely practiced cultural norms and impose them upon an ancient culture and its authors writing in the language and customs of its day? Was he really speaking disrespectfully to her? Would that be consistent with the rest of the image of Jesus the authors were showing, or is that maybe reading something into it? Did they intend to make Jesus out to be a dick to his mom? Was that their intent?

You see, I do not believe that these authors were "recording history", as some careless reader of scripture might like to assume. These were crafted stories to teach Christian principles. Hating your parents, nowhere is found as a Christian principle. It's more than highly unlikely they penned Jesus to be acting like a dick to his own mother. Why would they? For what purpose? Did Jesus teach one day to love others as yourself, and then kick little puppies and scorn family on another?

Were the authors trying to say Jesus had some unresolved emotional issues and still dealing with his own inner landscapes, not practicing what he preached? I highly doubt that's what the various authors intended to be communicating with that story. I do not believing the authors were stenographers, merely recording events as the unfolding without any reason other than recording history in their minds. That's a highly unrealistic, and modern notion about them that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

He went on a rampage with a whip.
A rampage? The whip, first and foremost, was not used on humans. The story says he took the cord and drove the animals out, like anyone who was trying to chase a herd of animal out to clear and area would. In other words, he was using a tool for that specific purpose. I don't read an uncontrolled, raging rampage there.

Overturning the money changers tables? Why call that a rampage? He was very controlled and intentional in targeting the activity they were engaged with. Chasing off wolves and dogs out of a sacred place, is not "out of control", as the word "rampage" suggests. Nothing in that story suggests a Jesus out of control.

He possibly practiced sorcery.
Huh?

He allowed himself to be put to death - also a sin if it can be prevented.
If you allowed yourself to be struck by a car and lose your life in order to push your children out of the way and saving them, is that still a sin in God's eyes, or just yours?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
He taught them that the "Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath." This was to teach that those who think "loving God" means obeying dietary laws and days of observance are missing the point. The sabbath isn't something you observe because it's important to God. It was made as a day of rest for humans. If circumstances, such as his disciples having no food and being hungry, means they cannot eat because it's the Sabbath day and they can't pick wheat, that's a wrong application of what the law is for.

It's not because it matters to God, and just as David got sacred bread from the high priest on the Sabbath to feed his men on the Sabbath, Jesus was illustrating common sense and grace over legalism. He wasn't teaching "disobey the law", but rather using a little common sense and not having the incorrect idea that these laws are to please God, as if someone God is concerned about days of the week as God.

And if that wasn't enough, the author made it clear it didn't matter to God by having Jesus then say, that as the Son of Man, he says it doesn't. In other words, the Lord of the Sabbath was there and said its okay, don't worry about it. He gave them permission, since he was the author of the law anyway, just in case someone was still worried about it and not understanding why it didn't really matter under the circumstances, based on the logical rationale he had just explained.

The story was to teach the foundation Christian principle about love and grace, over law and legalism as the path to God. Days of the week are important to man, not to God. Don't bend the rules in a religion, into making them about the nature of God. Religion is for man, not for God. God has no need of religion himself.
Several issues I see with this:

1. The Shabbat seems to matter a whole lot to God. Remember the bloke with the sticks?

2. They had put themselves in this position. They were poor and starving by choice.

3.
If one believes Jesus is God maybe this argument works. I don't take this approach, and I'm making these arguments under the assumption that Jesus is just some Jewish dude, in which case the 'he's the author' argument isn't applicable. And it seems strange to me that if he were God or not, why would he take disciples and put them in such a situation deliberately where he know they'd end up breaking the law in the first place?

And of course there are principles here that are being trodden underfoot by a strained reading of the text. Anyone who is truly on a path to the Divine, in fact does need to place the love of God ahead of all other interests in life. If you are to love your parents and your neighbor as yourself, as Jesus cleary teaches, then you have to love God first before all else, because God is the Source of Love. It's like going to the well for water. If you don't care for that well before all else, you'll soon all suffer and dies from a lack of water.

To "hate" your parents is not an actual injunction, as that would violate his teaching that Love is the fulfillment of all of the law and prophets. It's meant as a 'by comparison'. It's hyperbole, 'as wide as the oceans, as high as the skies," not literalism.
Again, I don't believe Jesus was saying this from the pov of his being God or any form of divine. Sure, love God first, but not another man.

So, you wish to take modern American, relatively recent and barely practiced cultural norms and impose them upon an ancient culture and its authors writing in the language and customs of its day? Was he really speaking disrespectfully to her? Would that be consistent with the rest of the image of Jesus the authors were showing, or is that maybe reading something into it? Did they intend to make Jesus out to be a dick to his mom? Was that their intent?
Who knows? Jesus often comes off as less than wellmeaning, such as with his interaction with the Samaritan woman. No matter how many arguments I see for that episode, none have been convincing. Neither do they convince me here. Where else in scripture do we ever see it being alright to talk to one's parents this way?

A rampage? The whip, first and foremost, was not used on humans. The story says he took the cord and drove the animals out, like anyone who was trying to chase a herd of animal out to clear and area would. In other words, he was using a tool for that specific purpose. I don't read an uncontrolled, raging rampage there.

Overturning the money changers tables? Why call that a rampage? He was very controlled and intentional in targeting the activity they were engaged with. Chasing off wolves and dogs out of a sacred place, is not "out of control", as the word "rampage" suggests. Nothing in that story suggests a Jesus out of control.
It sounds like a violent rampage to me and I'm not exactly sure what the animals did wrong. He went and made a whip, turfed out folks who were legally allowed to be there and drove away their animals. Not very diplomatic.

A common Orthodox Jewish belief. Jesus' way of faith healing always struck me as odd. His spitting, using clay, etc. reminds me of Pagan magic rituals. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Were he actually that powerful, I don't see any need for the spit or the clay.

If you allowed yourself to be struck by a car and lose your life in order to push your children out of the way and saving them, is that still a sin in God's eyes, or just yours?
I don't believe this is why he died though. I don't accept these Christian understandings at face value. This is also in complete opposition to Jewish understanding of how sin works and is forgiven, so I doubt Jesus understood it this way either. It seems as though he were caught off-guard to me.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Casting devils into pigs...

a) he listened and obeyed legion of devils, followed their bidding
Do you believe this story is just simply recorded history, or that the author had some lesson in mind? Was that lesson for his readers that demons could tell Jesus what to do and Jesus had to obey? Would that image be consistent with the rest of the stories, or is this just a case of reading something into the story that isn't there in the author's mind?

What was the author's intent in your mind? To show Jesus as weak? Does that make sense to you they would?

b) tortured and killed innocent animals
Jesus tortured animals? Really? "Bwahahaha! I'll get you my pretty!"? I suppose there is that story about how Jesus pulled the wings off of flies and burned them with a magnifying glass because it made him feel powerful? I don't seem to recall that story myself, but you should expect something like that if the author wanted you to see Jesus as a torturer of innocent animals. :)

c) destroyed property and livelihood of farmer
Or maybe, like any story told by a storyteller, you miss the point when you overread into the story things like this. For all you know, if that really was a concern, in the literalists' special appendix, there is a follow up story that Jesus sent a beautiful princess to marry that farmer, and he inherited many lands and titles as compensation for Jesus' demon exorcism. :)

People in the town were angry at Jesus for good reason.
Why did the author write them in that way? What was the author's intent? To show Jesus as a reckless lunatic burning down people's livelihoods? Was that what Matthew and Luke were both intending you to see? What was their motive for doing so?

You assume the authors were stenographers, merely capturing events as they unfolding, with a pen instead of a video recorder? The gospels are actually just documentaries? Do you believe that to be true?

Now it is your turn, examples, or rationalization of Jesus acts.
I think the better question is, what do you see as the rationale of the authors to have the stories saying what you are reading into them? Why would they make Jesus out to be mean, reckless, and violent? Crappy authors with an unfleshed out character who is one day saint, next day villain?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I would say that it does matter. God is perfect and Holy, and without God we, who are imperfect, are lost.

Jesus, we are told, was the perfect Son of God, making him the only acceptable sacrifice for sin.

Acts 3:14,15. 'But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.'

As the scriptures tell us, only through the risen Christ do we have access to God's kingdom, and to eternal life.

John 14:6. 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me'.
Why would God create imperfect beings and then demand a sacrifice (of perfection) from them for their imperfection. Sorry, but this kind of warped religiosity makes no sense to me at all. Jesus didn;t die because God demanded a sacrifice. He died because we killed him. And we killed him because we didn't like his message. The message that only the divine spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, that exists within us as "God's children", can heal us and save us from ourselves. Instead, we wanted to continue behaving like dumb animals and pretend that religiosity would save us. But Jesus said no, it didn't work like that. So we got rid of him.

Fortunately, his message endures, ... for those willing to listen. (In spite of the warped religiosity.)
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
You see, I do not believe that these authors were "recording history", as some careless reader of scripture might like to assume. These were crafted stories to teach Christian principles.

Bingo. There are two groups of people who take such stories literally: some Christians and some anti-Christians. Both sides ignore that the Bible also says that the "letter killeth" which to me is a clear admonition to not be literal.

And besides, anyone who has played a game of "telephone" knows what happens to a real event when it passes through several people. This to me illustrates that even some historical events in the Bible are far from the actual events but were finally set down in writing when the real history was lost due to the oral tradition. (Crossing the "reed" sea, for example).

They were poor and starving by choice.

"Starving by choice?" That's very modern where there is a lot of people saying that fasting leads to better health: 8 Health Benefits of Fasting, Backed by Science
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus, we are told, was the perfect Son of God, making him the only acceptable sacrifice for sin.

Your comment illustrates the basic difference between critical thinking and faith-based thinking. The critical thinker evaluates the actions of Jesus and decides whether they describe a perfect person.

Beside the thing with the swine, we have cursing the fig tree.

Also, Jesus says marriage to a divorcee is adultery; and a man who ogles a woman has already committed adultery.

He said, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." - Luke 19:27.

He said, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." - Luke 14:26

He said, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me." - Luke 19:27

Jesus says don't save money or plan ahead. "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." - Matt 6:19-34

Jesus says the best way for a man to be sure of getting into heaven is to have himself castrated. - Matt 19:12

Jesus says it is more important to anoint him with precious ointment than to give to the poor, who will always be here.(Why not just get rid of poverty?) - Mark 14:4-7

Jesus says anyone who believes in him can play with venomous snakes or drink poison without harm.(This act has been often tried, with rather unsatisfactory results.) - Mark 16:18

Jesus fails to condemn whipping slaves - Luke 12:47-48​

Get castrated? Pluck out your eye? Play with venomous snakes? Slay my enemies before me? Anointing his feet is more important that feeding the starving?

Well, this is not what I consider a perfect person. This isn't even a person I want to know. You might find that offensive, but you probably wouldn't if you weren't a Christian. You would find it a reasonable judgment at least in part

The faith-based thinker does his thinking in the reverse order. He begins by assuming that all of these things must represent the words and deeds of a perfect person, and tries to sanitize this list. Somehow, things that sound like bad advice are really very, very good advice - somehow. "Jesus didn't really mean what the words said, you are taking it out of context, you can't understand scripture if you're not filled with the spirit, plus there's this other scripture over here that says not to kill, to honor one's parents, and to give to the poor, plus Jesus is perfect as scripture tells us, so obviously the words can't mean what they say."

Whereas the critical thinker's opinion is drawn from an impartial evaluation of evidence such as that above, the faith-based thinker has a premise that he wants to present as conclusion, as if it followed from the same impartial evaluation of the evidence.

But it was his starting point, not a conclusion, and can therefore justifiably be called a pseudo-conclusion. Once the evidence is massaged to seem to support the pseudo-conclusion with a variety of apologetics sleights-of-hand, it can be front-loaded ahead of the pseudo-conclusion and presented as a reasoned argument. It is not.

This thinking, basically Divine Command Theory, or that good is defined by what God says and does, has terrible consequences. It by this route that otherwise well-meaning people become homophobes and persecutors of gays and transgendered people. It may seem like irrational, destructive bigotry if one doesn't have Bible to consult, but if God finds such people abominable and sinners, and the just consequences of sin are eternal torment, then surely God will approve of the oppression beginning on earth. It must be good and right to think and do. It gives credence to the following:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg
 
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idea

Question Everything
I think the better question is, what do you see as the rationale of the authors to have the stories saying what you are reading into them? Why would they make Jesus out to be mean, reckless, and violent? Crappy authors with an unfleshed out character who is one day saint, next day villain?

Yes, it is all just a story, none of it to be taken literally at all, nothing more than Aesop Fables. I suppose the author's intent was to show the evil nature of demons, without understanding the innocent lives of the animals or what it actually meant to say Jesus followed the orders of the Demons, and allowed them into the animals.

I think there is good and evil in everyone. If you want to define perfect as "complete" I suppose that would be another story in which we could all be considered "perfect".

Reincarnation makes much more since to me than the atonement. If someone cheats on their test, does not study, you cannot just give them an A and expect they understand the material. Wisdom, growth, progression - these all must come from within. Justice must be served before mercy, the innocent protected above the guilty. Jesus does not protect the innocent, the idea of the atonement is only valuable to the guilty. Indulgences is not just a Catholic idea, it permeates all of Christianity. Jesus appeals to the guilty, it is their get out of jail free card. People "put it into God's hands" to avoid personal responsibility. Casting devils into innocent animals is a great illustration of what Christianity does - condemns the innocent to torture and suffering.
 
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