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The strange case of John Sanford, creationist

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Well the peer reviewd articles that I shared* conclude the opposite,

Random mutation + natural selection are too limited and can’t explain evolution


So it all boils down to 2 alternatives

1 trust peer revied articles

2 trust internet atheist and fanatic evolutionists from an open forum

You cant blame me for picking option 1
There is a 3rd alternative - one which I provided evidence for more than once -
trust that people like Leroy will provide out of date, irrelevant links/quotes (most likely gleaned from ID/YEC sources) and misinterpret/misrepresent it and imply that he has made a great point.

Like citing Cairns 1988 paper, Shapiro's non-research based diatribes, flubbing (repeatedly) Haldane's model, conflating (repeatedly) fixed, beneficial mutations with total mutational difference; etc.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Where are the peer reviewed papers that offer EVIDENCE that it is not?

From your list:

As the result of studies of bacterial variation, it is now widely believed that mutations arise continuously and without any consideration for their utility. In this paper, we briefly review the source of this idea and then describe some experiments suggesting that cells may have mechanisms for choosing which mutations will occur The origin of mutants

This is Cairns' 1988 paper hawking 'directed mutations.'

Here is a 2004 paper by one of his collaborators:

"Fairly early on in our studies, Cairns and I eliminated the hypothesis that mutations were “directed” toward a useful goal. The first negative evidence was obtained not with FC40, but with SM195. SM195 has an amber mutation in lacZ and so reverts both by intragenic mutations and by the creation of tRNA suppressors (11). The continued appearance of extragenic suppressors during lactose selection allowed us to dismiss the hypothesis that the selective conditions “instructed” the cell to make appropriate mutations—in the case of extragenic suppressors, there is no direct path from the phenotype (Lac+) to the mutated gene (encoding a tRNA) (23). Later it was shown that about two-thirds of the late-appearing Lac+ revertants of SM195 were due to slow-growing ochre suppressors that probably arose during growth prior to lactose selection (57). Nonetheless, the continued appearance of fast-growing amber suppressors in addition to the true revertants demonstrated that mutations appear elsewhere than in the gene directly under selection (24)."


But you go on citing that 1988 paper...
OK THE 1988 paper has been refuted.

how about the rest?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Wow, OK -

Typical exonic portion of a gene is ~1500 bp.
YOU claim that there would need to be "thousands" of mutations to make it a 'new gene'.

Just as absurd as Sanford's nonsense.

You can search for scientific papers (or do you just copy-paste your refs from some creationist site?), look up 'gene families' and 'exon shuffling' and so on.
Still haven’t justify why is it “hilarious”

1 you start with a gene (say foxp2)

2 then you have a gene duplication

3 all I am saying is that in order to have something different (something that scientist would not recognize as a copy of foxp2) you need many single point mutations, other wise scientist would identy it as a variation o FOXP2 and not a “new gene”

What’s hilarious about that?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
well thats the point that I made to @tas8831


We can ask him directly.

Tas, do you agree that mutations in primates don’t become fixed and dominat in 30 years (you need much more time)
Already answered, but after reading additional exchanges, just another comment(s) -

A mutation does not 'become' dominant if it becomes fixed - on the contrary, it is easier for mutants that act in a dominant fashion to become fixed. This is why recessive traits are less common.
The underlying but un-written premise that you seem fixated on is your misunderstanding/misrepresentation of Haldane's model as applied by creationists like Sanford and ReMine (which you have referenced).

Haldane's model was formulated in 1957 and applied to specific situations. He admitted in that paper that he felt his numbers would likely need "drastic revision."
ReMine took Haldane's model, considered it a universal truth under all circumstances (in effect), and applied it to the human-chimp issue, claiming that at a max, 1667 beneficial mutations could have been fixed in 10 million years. He allowed for some thousands of fixed neutral mutations accumulating as well (so generous!), considering all the other nucleotide differences irrelevant. He then declared that 1667 is too few, and implied that at even 500,000 would be too few to get a "sapien from a simian."
He never provided a scientific rationale, he just somehow knew it was too few. Because we are so special.
Then along came Leroy, who initially acknowledged this, but then started conflating the total number of nucleotide differences with the 'fixed, beneficial mutations' ala Haldane, and ran with it. Now I guess his claims have morphed into not enough time for the number of mutations to have accumulated at all, or that they are all beneficial, or who can even tell what he 'argues' these days. It is all basically gibberish in one way or another, and I suspect much of it (like his list of quotes) is just some copy pasta.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
OK THE 1988 paper has been refuted.

how about the rest?
Not going to run down your copy-pasted rabbit hole.

I predict that I would find such issues with all of them - issues that your creationist source covered up (for surely you did not search for and read all those on your won - I find that laughable).
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Still haven’t justify why is it “hilarious”

1 you start with a gene (say foxp2)

2 then you have a gene duplication

3 all I am saying is that in order to have something different (something that scientist would not recognize as a copy of foxp2) you need many single point mutations, other wise scientist would identy it as a variation o FOXP2 and not a “new gene”

What’s hilarious about that?
You just made it more hilarious.

Why did you add this bizarre requirement that the duplicate be totally changed, site by site, to be a "new" gene?

Your naivete is something to see. Single point mutations can alter the protein encoded in a gene - is that a "new gene" to you? Not that it matters, you have an exceptionally poor grasp of this material so your opinion is primarily entertainment.

I Googled 'how to get new genes' and I found this. It is geared toward high school students, so you should check it out.

One of the problems with folks like you is that you think you can successfully argue high-level science by gleaning some tidbits from online sources despite lacking a relevant background. And I know you lack a relevant background based on how often you don't understand or don't seem to know about lower-level (like, freshman level) basic concepts.
It is like thinking you can hold your ground in a 1-on-1 with Lebron James because you played basketball in the park with some pals a few years ago and you spent a few weeks watching pro bball on TV.
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes, but these mutations (those that are different In chimps and humans) are equal in all humans, meaning that each of those 60 mutations has to become fixed and dominant.
:facepalm:
This is the sort of thing I am referring to when I wrote that you think you can argue with the 'big boys' despite not having the requisite background.
This is laughably nonsensical.

Do you really think that we are all born with not only 60 brand new fixed beneficial mutations, but that all humans are born with the exact same new mutations???:tonguewink::tonguewink::joycat::joycat::joycat:

I cannot take you seriously at all.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
My only claim is that some mutations are not random and that they play an important role, and I provided sources supporting that claim.
No, you didn't. You thought you did, for reasons I have expanded on previously.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Let's review the chain of posts here...

How you understood that to mean that I agree with the asanine and demonstrably false nonsense that "there is not enough time for humans to evolve from an ancient primate", is beyond me.

I rest my case and will leave the obvious intellectual dishonesty to speak for itself.
Wow - THAT was some spectacular ..... I don't even know what. Going from a sentence on natural selection to 'so you agree that there was not enough time'.... Amazing how these people operate.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Yes that is and has always been my point , I am not going against biologists, but your friends (@TagliatelliMonster @tas8831 @Subduction Zone etc.) form this forum seem to disagree with this statemenmt.
That is not the statement I have a problem with. I have a problem with your claims about 'not enough time' and '33 million fixed beneficial mutations' and that sort of nonsense.
Gene duplications are additional differences that also require an explanation.
Ok - the explanation for gene duplication is that the genes are duplicated.
A genetics expert like you must understand how that works. Right? I mean, I take at least an hour or so to cover it when I have taught genetics. Basic stuff.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
do you agree or disagree with the claim that nonrandom mutations occur and that they play an important role?
Disagree. That you have found on some creationist sites supposed quotes that imply that these occur is not good evidence that they do and 'play an important role.'

Tell me - and be honest - how many of those papers did you actually read?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Among other things, You need around 20-30M single point mutations to explain the differences between humans and chimps

Weather if any of these mutations are vital or not is irrelevant,..........it is still a fact that these mutations had to occure and become fixed and dominant. and we need an expalnation for that.

Here is my explanation for your proposition - you are dishonest and/or incompetent and/or trolling.

I really don't know of any other way to describe your antics. You cannot even seem to correctly paraphrase your creationist sources. NOBODY - at least nobody sane, educated, and competent - has ever suggested that the ENTIRE nucleotide difference between us and modern chimps must all be fixed, beneficial mutations. I have explained this to you REPEATEDLY over the course of at least a couple of years, and I am sure others have, too.

Why can't you get this through your skull??

How about taking a couple classes in genetics, biology, evolution, etc.? Then maybe you won't continue to embarrass yourself.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Ok we have a disagreement on NGE, but for the most part we agree, nonrandom mutations (or nonrandom variation) played an important role.

Uh... what? He did not at all 'agree' with that...
Now given that the human line evolved too fast
Fallacy of begging the question. HINT: just writing the same wrong garbage over and over will not suddenly make it not wrong.
, all I am suggesting is that maybe* these nonrandom mutations played an important role specially in the human line……………does this sounds plausible to you?
Nobody has seen you present data or evidence nonrandom mutations exist yet.
There is a 1.2% single nucleotide differences between humans and chimps weather if these differences are relevant or not is not important the differences are still there and are still real and require an explanation
You've received several explanations that you either ignore or cannot understand.
1 imagine that some ancient ape (a direct ancestor of humans and chimps) had a mutation

2 this mutilation was so positive and so beneficial that in just 10 years this mutation became fixed and dominant in the whole population.

3 then an other ape (descendent of the first) had another mutation that was also so benefitial that in just 10 years it became fixed and dominant in the population (such that everybody has the 2 mutations)

4 repeat the process for 5 million years

5 you will end up with 500,000 mutations

The point is that even under this unrealistic and extremely beneficial scenario at most a population can accumulate 500,000 mutations in 5 million years……….if the differences between chimps and humans is 1.2% (36,000,000 mutations) then your 500,000 limit is not nearly enough to explain all the 36,000,000 differences.
I ask in all sincerity - do you have a major learning disorder?

NOBODY has ever claimed all of the mutational differences between humans and an ancestor are beneficial.

Why do you keep making that asinine claim?
So the conclusion is that perhaps there is something else (say nonrandom mutations)
No, the conclusion is that you do not know what the heck you are talking about and/or lying and/or trolling.
Which do you prefer?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
you need 33 tries (33 generations) to get a single mutation fixed

do the math, how long will it take you to get 30,000,000 mutations fixed?
What is your source that demonstrates that these 33 million mutations are beneficial and fixed?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I DONT KNOW.+

do you have any good reason to reject shapiros work?
Do you have any good reason to accept it as demonstrated?
Never mind - you still think that all of the mutational difference between humans and an ancestor has to be beneficial and fixed.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
You have to explain 36,000,000 single nucleotide differences between chimps and humans. Some of these differences came from the chimp line and some from the human line. It doesn’t matter if the ratio is 50%/50% or 10%/90% or 25%/75% you still have to explain these 36 million differences
OK - replication errors, indels, etc.
Done.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
And this is another aspect of your posts that I find hilarious.....how you continuously ignore much of what's posted to you and just repeat the same mistakes over, and over, and over, and over.

Let me ask you....have you ever presented this "challenge" to an actual geneticist or evolutionary biologist?
I'm one of those (inactive for the last decade). I find his challenge laughable. I might entertain it if it came from a 19 year old freshmen, but from someone presenting himself as Johnny Science expert on the intertubes, it just comes across as... well... typical for lay creationist types.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Here is my explanation for your proposition - you are dishonest and/or incompetent and/or trolling.

I really don't know of any other way to describe your antics. You cannot even seem to correctly paraphrase your creationist sources. NOBODY - at least nobody sane, educated, and competent - has ever suggested that the ENTIRE nucleotide difference between us and modern chimps must all be fixed, beneficial mutations. I have explained this to you REPEATEDLY over the course of at least a couple of years, and I am sure others have, too.

Why can't you get this through your skull??

How about taking a couple classes in genetics, biology, evolution, etc.? Then maybe you won't continue to embarrass yourself.

ENTIRE nucleotide difference between us and modern chimps must all be fixed, beneficial mutations.

Again haldine dilemma is a “problem” is you think that a big portion of the differences (in the genotype) are benefitial mutations.

Is this doesn’t represent you then the the dilema doesn’t apply to you.
 
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