For Christians: What is Paradise? Is it Heaven?

[Jeremiah Ames]

Are you a full preterist?
This world is full of evil still. Sure doesn't look like the New Jerusalem to me. It's not only Revelation that talks about a new Earth.

From Peter:"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

Isaiah 65:17–19
"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in My people; the voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

Zechariah 9:10
"I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the horse from Jerusalem; the battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion shall be 'from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.' "

Does this sound like the world we live in now?

Or this?:

Isaiah 11:6–9
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."

I don’t know what a preterist is.

just another, in a long list of man made terms to label and separate the people, I am guessing

where in the Bible does the Lord speak of preterists, or amilleniums, or any of those other ridiculous man made terms?

I cant quite figure out what you’re talking about, btw.

maybe this will help.
John 4:23-24
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

“spirit” is the key

 

[Wildswanderer]

I don’t know what a preterist is.

just another, in a long list of man made terms to label and separate the people, I am guessing

where in the Bible does the Lord speak of preterists, or amilleniums, or any of those other ridiculous man made terms?

I cant quite figure out what you’re talking about, btw.

maybe this will help.
John 4:23-24
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

“spirit” is the key

A full preterist is someone who doesn't believe in the future return of Jesus.,. there's more to it, but for this discussion that was why I asked. Because it sounds as if you think we live on the new earth now. The kingdom of heaven is both spiritual and literal. I just don't know how you read the verses I quote as being fulfilled already.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

A full preterist is someone who doesn't believe in the future return of Jesus.,. there's more to it, but for this discussion that was why I asked. Because it sounds as if you think we live on the new earth now. The kingdom of heaven is both spiritual and literal. I just don't know how you read the verses I quote as being fulfilled already.

i refuse to be labeled, but I definitely don’t believe in the future return of Jesus.

that would indicate that he is NOT here now.

doesn’t the Bible say otherwise?

I am wondering why there are some people who look forward to some future utopia? or some future period of “ruling” ? why would Christians want to “rule” others for 1000 years? The Lord said something about being a servant, not a ruler. Doesn’t the literal get people’s minds focused on the wrong things?

doesn’t the Lord provide us a new earth and a new heaven now, if we just cooperate? I’m speaking individually.

I am wondering why the Lord, God of the universe, creator of all things, would want to create a new literal earth (a big dirty rock) to float around in space, without a sun, which will eventually burn out?

i just have a very hard time seeing things relating to the Lord in literal terms.

it is nothing against you, btw. I am fully aware that I am the odd ball.

 

[Deeje]

the others are newer ones written with apparent biases, which do not detract from the message
(as long as someone is not prooftexting to support some idea)

i prefer the KJV since I cannot read Hebrew or Greek, but I try to get a big picture by reading through many versions, including NRSV

I like to use different translations in conjunction with an Interlinear, word for word translation and concordances that give enhanced meaning to original language words....some of which do not translate well into English. I must say, I have never been disappointed at what I have discovered using this approach to scripture.

Using someone’s own preferred translation has its benefits though, pointing out some interesting things.

I originally studied the KJV because it was the translation I was raised with, but further Bible study revealed some very stark bias that to me was very misleading, especially concerning the trinity.

Let me give you an example.....

The very well used “proof text” of John 1:1 where “the Word” (LOGOS) was “with God” (ho theos) “in the beginning” and was at the same time, “God”. (theos)
Yet when we go over to John 1:18 we see that “no man has ever seen God” and then the same word “theos” is translated as “Son”. So by rights, if “theos” in verse 18 is translated “Son” it should also be translated “Son” in verse 1.

In the beginning, was the Word and the Word was with “the God” (ho theos”, identifying the Father) and the Word was “the Son”.
It was the Son who became flesh, not God.

It changes the whole meaning of this so called proof text.
There are others but I have things to do outside before it pours with rain.....so I’ll be back.

 

[Deeje]

i refuse to be labeled, but I definitely don’t believe in the future return of Jesus.

that would indicate that he is NOT here now.

doesn’t the Bible say otherwise?

I am wondering why there are some people who look forward to some future utopia? or some future period of “ruling” ? why would Christians want to “rule” others for 1000 years? The Lord said something about being a servant, not a ruler. Doesn’t the literal get people’s minds focused on the wrong things?

doesn’t the Lord provide us a new earth and a new heaven now, if we just cooperate? I’m speaking individually.

I am anxious to address these things with you.....later.

 

[Wildswanderer]

i refuse to be labeled, but I definitely don’t believe in the future return of Jesus.

that would indicate that he is NOT here now.

doesn’t the Bible say otherwise?

I am wondering why there are some people who look forward to some future utopia? or some future period of “ruling” ? why would Christians want to “rule” others for 1000 years? The Lord said something about being a servant, not a ruler. Doesn’t the literal get people’s minds focused on the wrong things?

doesn’t the Lord provide us a new earth and a new heaven now, if we just cooperate? I’m speaking individually.

I am wondering why the Lord, God of the universe, creator of all things, would want to create a new literal earth (a big dirty rock) to float around in space, without a sun, which will eventually burn out?

i just have a very hard time seeing things relating to the Lord in literal terms.

it is nothing against you, btw. I am fully aware that I am the odd ball.

Well since he came here literally ( in the flesh) the first time, I'm not sure how you can say he's here now.
He sent the Holy Spirit, as he promised to.
I'm not sure what you mean about God providing a new earth now. This one is all we have and it's plenty messed up by sin. So are we.
Obviously the new earth, like Eden, will not have the problems of death or sickness or sin, or a creation that wears out. Paul says creation is groaning for redemption along with us. When nature is redeemed, there will be no earth quakes or hurricanes or tornadoes to destroy stuff. No bugs giving us malaria or lyme. No sadness. Why would anyone not want that?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I am anxious to address these things with you.....later.

indeed, sounds fun

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I like to use different translations in conjunction with an Interlinear, word for word translation and concordances that give enhanced meaning to original language words....some of which do not translate well into English. I must say, I have never been disappointed at what I have discovered using this approach to scripture.

Using someone’s own preferred translation has its benefits though, pointing out some interesting things.

I originally studied the KJV because it was the translation I was raised with, but further Bible study revealed some very stark bias that to me was very misleading, especially concerning the trinity.

Let me give you an example.....

The very well used “proof text” of John 1:1 where “the Word” (LOGOS) was “with God” (ho theos) “in the beginning” and was at the same time, “God”. (theos)
Yet when we go over to John 1:18 we see that “no man has ever seen God” and then the same word “theos” is translated as “Son”. So by rights, if “theos” in verse 18 is translated “Son” it should also be translated “Son” in verse 1.

In the beginning, was the Word and the Word was with “the God” (ho theos”, identifying the Father) and the Word was “the Son”.
It was the Son who became flesh, not God.

It changes the whole meaning of this so called proof text.
There are others but I have things to do outside before it pours with rain.....so I’ll be back.

thank you for that Deeje

i have not had the length of time that you have had with the Bible, but I have noticed things that seem off in all of the versions I’ve read, including KJV.

i only started focusing more on KJV recently.
I still like NKJV, YLT and less often NLT, NIV, ERV, and AMP

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Well since he came here literally ( in the flesh) the first time, I'm not sure how you can say he's here now.
He sent the Holy Spirit, as he promised to.
I'm not sure what you mean about God providing a new earth now. This one is all we have and it's plenty messed up by sin. So are we.
Obviously the new earth, like Eden, will not have the problems of death or sickness or sin, or a creation that wears out. Paul says creation is groaning for redemption along with us. When nature is redeemed, there will be no earth quakes or hurricanes or tornadoes to destroy stuff. No bugs giving us malaria or lyme. No sadness. Why would anyone not want that?

ok

no bugs sounds good, i guess

but then what will the birds eat?

 

[Wildswanderer]

ok

no bugs sounds good, i guess

but then what will the birds eat?

I didn't mean no bugs. Just no bugs that cause pain or sickness. No mosquitoes biting us. In Eden, animals didn't eat each other, and since it says the lion and lamb will lay together, I guess they will both eat plants.

 

[Deeje]

OK...half the job done outside and I ran out of puff.....so....I'm back.

i refuse to be labeled, but I definitely don’t believe in the future return of Jesus.

that would indicate that he is NOT here now.

doesn’t the Bible say otherwise?

Good question.....
When Jesus was born as a human, he was alive in the flesh for thirty three and a half years....only three and a half years as Messiah....an assignment he took up willingly at his baptism.

After his death, he was in his tomb for three days and nights as he himself prophesied. (Matthew 12:38-40)
When he was resurrected, he was raised as a spirit, not in the flesh. (1 Peter 3:18) Like other spirit beings he was able to materialize "flesh and bone" as he said. (Luke 24:39) Angels always materialized because it was against God's law to communicate with 'spirits' (demons) who could impersonate others. (Deuteronomy 18:90-12) They are deceivers. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
So Jesus materialized too. He even disappeared (dematerialized) right before their eyes on one occasion. (Luke 24:30-31)

So now we have a spiritual Jesus who has returned to his Father in heaven to carry out a promise....
John 14:2 NKJV...
" In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Not my favorite translation because there are no "mansions" .....the word in Greek is "monē" which means a dwelling place. Dunno where they got mansions....wishful thinking maybe?

Anyhow, the promise was that he was going away to prepare a place for them in his Father's house. So at best "rooms" where they would dwell. (giving them an earthly or figurative definition of heavenly things). No human really knows what heaven looks like, except maybe in visions.

During the 40 days that he stayed on earth to encourage and strengthen his apostles, he "appeared" to them many times....but he did not stay with then as he had done for the previous three and a half years.

When it was time for him to ascend into heaven to rejoin his Father as the Logos (which means "one who speaks for another", hence he is called the "Word") he was going back with another assignment....that of setting up the heavenly Kingdom. All the promises he made to his apostles and disciples were in connection with a death and resurrection like his, so that they would join him later, when he was to come back for them. (John 13:36; John 14:3) They would then be resurrected like he was....in the spirit.

The rest of mankind in their graves would be resurrected later. (John 5:28-29)

So the picture thus far is that of Jesus promising his disciples a place in heaven that he would prepare for them on his return there. They did not fully understand the implications of the Kingdom or their place in it as yet because the promised holy spirit would come, and with their anointing they would fully understand where they were going and why. That happened at Pentecost. But their heavenly resurrection would have to wait till he came back for them. When was that to be? No one knew....and it really didn't matter because thousands of years would pass before he was to return. Those in their graves would all sleep peacefully until then. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

I am wondering why there are some people who look forward to some future utopia? or some future period of “ruling” ? why would Christians want to “rule” others for 1000 years? The Lord said something about being a servant, not a ruler. Doesn’t the literal get people’s minds focused on the wrong things?

doesn’t the Lord provide us a new earth and a new heaven now, if we just cooperate? I’m speaking individually.

Since his promises were to the collective of his disciples at the time, those chosen for heavenly life were a limited number....they were to be "kings and priests" as co-rulers with Christ in his Kingdom (Revelation 20:6) which was to "come" at God's pre-determined time. It would cleanse the earth of all wickedness, and replace failed and corrupted human rulership with the one we should have had at the beginning. (Daniel 2:44)
I believe that Christ has indeed returned already because he gave us certain events within a time period which would identify the time of his "presence" not his "coming". (Matthew 24:3-14)
By mistranslating "parousia" as "coming" the churches are looking for a physical manifestation of Christ himself, but that was to come after all the other signs that he gave were in evidence....as they are now. Jesus is already ruling and he is guiding his disciples in the work that he assigned them to do before he left. (Matthew 28:19-20)

We are in "the last days" of increasing turmoil where the planet and all its inhabitants are under assault from so many sides. As Paul wrote....
2 Timothy 3:1-5...
"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!" (NKJV)
These traits in humankind have never been in clearer evidence, with less excuse for any of them in this 21st century. We are not uneducated savages and yet mankind are still behaving this way, and its getting worse, just as Jesus said...
Matthew 24:37-39.....
"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

The heavenly Kingdom will rule earthly subjects because it is a governmental arrangement....a "king" and his "dom"ain. Jesus is the King and the earth is his domain. He has those who were chosen to be his assistants, every one of whom has lived as a human being on earth, so they understand the human condition and will lead humankind back to God in reconciliation, like Jesus in a kind and compassionate way. (Revelation 14:1-4)

Revelation 21:2-4...
"Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

This is an earthly setting because God is with mankind....eliminating all the woes and stresses of this world and ushering in a "new world" of righteousness.

I am wondering why the Lord, God of the universe, creator of all things, would want to create a new literal earth (a big dirty rock) to float around in space, without a sun, which will eventually burn out?

i just have a very hard time seeing things relating to the Lord in literal terms.

Since the Bible does not indicate such a thing, where did you get that idea?

The "new heavens and new earth" are spoken about four times in the scriptures.....twice in the prophesies of Isaiah...foreshadowing the paradise conditions when the earth is restored to its original state, (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22) once in 2 Peter 3:13 and again in Revelation 21:1. All looking forward to the future paradise on earth as it was meant to be in the beginning. Its not a new planet. (Ecclesiastes 1:4) Its a new beginning....

The physical earth isn't going anywhere.....it is going to receive a cleansing and new tenants who will love their Creator and each other as well as looking after all the creature who will be under their care.
This is what God purposed in the beginning and he always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

I am fully aware that I am the odd ball.

All genuine Christians are "oddballs" Join the club.

 

[Deeje]

I believe that Paradise is the description of the state of the spirits of the righteous as they await the hour of their Resurrection.

As opposed to Prison and Hell.

I do not believe it to be a reference to either Heaven or the Garden of Eden - for it is a temporary state.

Would you say that your beliefs agree with the Bible or do they come from outside of it?

What is "prison and hell" I can't find either one in the Bible.....

 

[sojourner]

The very well used “proof text” of John 1:1 where “the Word” (LOGOS) was “with God” (ho theos) “in the beginning” and was at the same time, “God”. (theos)
Yet when we go over to John 1:18 we see that “no man has ever seen God” and then the same word “theos” is translated as “Son”. So by rights, if “theos” in verse 18 is translated “Son” it should also be translated “Son” in verse 1.

In the beginning, was the Word and the Word was with “the God” (ho theos”, identifying the Father) and the Word was “the Son”.
It was the Son who became flesh, not God.

This is a poor exegesis. First of all, you’re taking theos out of context in both passages. It needs context to have meaning. Theos isn’t translated “son.” A more literal transliteration of the second passage says “only born God (theos) the one being in the lap of the Father (meaning “the son”). “It is God the only Son…”

Second, instead of letting meaning come out of the text (exegesis), you’re superimposing a preconceived notion onto the text (eisegesis). The first is unbiased, the second is biased. So you’re committing the same mistake you accuse the KJV of making.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Would you say that your beliefs agree with the Bible or do they come from outside of it?

What is "prison and hell" I can't find either one in the Bible.....

It was Peter who spoke about the Lord Jesus Christ preaching to the captive spirits in Prison.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

It is my understanding that this Prison is the place prepared for those spirits who were "sometime disobedient" - not obedient enough to find place in Paradise yet not wicked enough to be shut up in Hell.

It is most likely not as pleasant there as Paradise - yet not as bad as Hell either. I don't think Satan is allowed to torment them there.

And it also seems that the inhabitants of Prison can be visited and preached to by the denizens of Paradise - like the Lord Jesus Christ did. Which means there is hope for them in the Resurrection and Judgment.

Else - why would the Lord Jesus Christ make the effort to preach to them?

And Hell is a concept often mentioned in the Bible - so I don't understand why you claim that you cannot find it.

Hell is where the willfully disobedient (i.e. "wicked") go and are tormented by Satan and his minions - but this also is a temporary condition - because after the wicked spirits of Hell are Resurrected and Judged - Hell is cast away into the "lake of fire" along with Death and with those whose names are not found in the Book of Life.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:12-15)

This makes sense considering that the Lord Jesus Christ promised that all sins will be forgiven Men - exempting the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." (Matthew 12:31)

I believe that the time spent in either Prison or Hell is the means of these spirits being forgiven. They must endure a punishment first before being forgiven.

Different punishments affixed to different degrees of disobedience.

 

[Deeje]

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your beliefs.

It was Peter who spoke about the Lord Jesus Christ preaching to the captive spirits in Prison.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

It is my understanding that this Prison is the place prepared for those spirits who were "sometime disobedient" - not obedient enough to find place in Paradise yet not wicked enough to be shut up in Hell.

It is most likely not as pleasant there as Paradise - yet not as bad as Hell either. I don't think Satan is allowed to torment them there.

According to my understanding of scripture, the “prison” where these “spirits” are restrained is called “Tartarus” (2 Peter 2:4) and this word is used only once in the scriptures. The “spirits” confined in this “prison” are those who were ‘disobedient in Noah’s day’. These are the “sons of God” who took the “daughters of men” in the violent and licentious times back then. (Genesis 6:1-2) These “sons of God” were not human sons of Adam, because no descendant of Adam is called a “son of God”. Only those who are a direct creation of God can have this designation. Those chosen for priestly roles in heaven are a “new creation” so can rightly become “sons of God” by adoption. (Romans 8:15-17) This applies to all who are chosen for priestly roles in heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

So we believe that these “spirits in prison” are the disobedient angels who materialized human form and took human women to engage in illicit sexual activity. They even produced a freakishly abnormal breed of humans called the “Nephilim”....gigantic and violent bullies who caused others to fall in their path. (Genesis 6:4)

The world under their influence was so wicked, that it left God with no choice but to wipe them all out. Only Noah and his family were considered worthy of salvation, although others were offered the opportunity through Noah’s preaching......but not a soul listened to him. Jesus used this situation to picture the days prior to his return and another, even worse catastrophic judgment event that is yet to come. (Matthew 24:37-39; Matthew 24:21)

Angels throughout the Bible, appeared to God’s ancient servants in human form, so we know that they have this ability and that they ate and drank like any human would, so it is not without precedent that we believe that these spirits were materialized demons, (disobedient angels who followed satan) and that the “dense darkness” of their “prison” was spiritual, not physical, since their wicked activities on earth have continued to this day. Part of their restraint was having their ability to materialize taken away. There is no record of them materializing again, but the faithful angels continued to do so.

What Jesus “preached” to these spirits was a judgment message because he spoke of their fate in prophesy as a place of complete and everlasting destruction reserved for them. (Matthew 25:41)

The Bible translation used can cause a lot of confusion if the rendering is not accurate. The KJV uses confusing archaic language and its renderings can convey ideas that the original languages never meant. Modern translations are more reliable IMO.

And it also seems that the inhabitants of Prison can be visited and preached to by the denizens of Paradise - like the Lord Jesus Christ did. Which means there is hope for them in the Resurrection and Judgment.

Else - why would the Lord Jesus Christ make the effort to preach to them?

The only one ever to “preach” to these spirits, was the resurrected Jesus. And in his preaching, were many judgment messages. I believe that this is what Jesus delivered to these wicked spirits.

And Hell is a concept often mentioned in the Bible - so I don't understand why you claim that you cannot find it.

Hell is where the willfully disobedient (i.e. "wicked") go and are tormented by Satan and his minions - but this also is a temporary condition - because after the wicked spirits of Hell are Resurrected and Judged - Hell is cast away into the "lake of fire" along with Death and with those whose names are not found in the Book of Life.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:12-15)

This illustrates why you need an accurate translation. There are three different words used in these quotations but all translated or understood to be one “Hell”. The more modern translations will often but not always make the distinction between them.

“Hades” for example is not “Hell”....”hades” is a place that is equivalent to the Hebrew “sheol” and it is not a place of activity, consciousness or suffering. It is mankind’s common grave. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
Job prayed to go there when at the height of his suffering. (Job 14:13) Hades gives up its dead, it does not retain them or punish its inhabitants forever because all in hades will be resurrected.

“Gehenna” is another word translated as “Hell” when it is no such thing. “Gehenna” was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, where fires were kept burning with the addition of sulfur (brimstone) day and night to consume the refuse. The bodies of executed criminals were often thrown into Gehenna for disposal. Nothing alive ever went in there. Jesus’ reference to Gehenna was to a Jew, sentencing them to everlasting death, with no possibility of a resurrection. The ancient Jews had no belief in life after death. A “soul” in their belief was a living breathing human being or animal.
Souls are not immortal and have no life outside of the body. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Greek influence however altered their perceptions and belief in an immortal soul was readily adopted because no one wants to think that when they die, they cease to exist.....but all it does is perpetuate the first lie told by the devil in Eden....”you surely will not die”.....God told Adam that he would simply “return to the dust”....nothing more. (Genesis 3:19)

This makes sense considering that the Lord Jesus Christ promised that all sins will be forgiven Men - exempting the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Jesus Christ died for all, but not all will benefit from his sacrifice. Only those who obey his teachings and who live their lives according to God’s laws will survive the catastrophe that is coming.

Those who are ‘sleeping in death’ are promised a resurrection and will all have the opportunity in a judgment period to bring their lives into harmony with God’s requirements. This is what the coming of God’s kingdom is for.....to return humanity back into a close relationship with God by ridding the human race of the sin that separates us from him. That is what Christ’s death accomplished.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." (Matthew 12:31)

I believe that the time spent in either Prison or Hell is the means of these spirits being forgiven. They must endure a punishment first before being forgiven.

My study of the Bible does not accommodate that belief in any way.
There is no such entity as the Holy Ghost. Ghosts are demons impersonating others, which is why God’s Law forbade communicating with them. God is not a “ghost” he is a “spirit” which is what the original word “Geist” means in German.

Those who end up in “the lake of fire” will join satan and his demons in a place from which no one returns. Fire is used as a symbol of complete destruction in the scriptures. “The lake of fire” is not a place of conscious torment, but “the second death”....a death from which there is no resurrection. “Death and hades” are hurled into this lake as well, so it cannot be a literal place. (Revelation 20:13)

Different punishments affixed to different degrees of disobedience.

One has to be conscious to experience suffering or punishment.
The Bible says that the dead are actually dead. Humans can only live again if God resurrects them. When Jesus demonstrated the resurrection with his friend Lazarus, where did Jesus say that Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14)

There is no punishment after death, unless a resurrected person abuses their free will and rebels, like satan and his demons did.....like Adam and his wife did....these are the examples we need to keep in mind because this is the whole basis of this life that we are living.....it is a living lesson in ‘obedience verses disobedience’....and the natural consequences of each one. How many have learned the lesson?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

It was Peter who spoke about the Lord Jesus Christ preaching to the captive spirits in Prison.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20)

It is my understanding that this Prison is the place prepared for those spirits who were "sometime disobedient" - not obedient enough to find place in Paradise yet not wicked enough to be shut up in Hell.

It is most likely not as pleasant there as Paradise - yet not as bad as Hell either. I don't think Satan is allowed to torment them there.

And it also seems that the inhabitants of Prison can be visited and preached to by the denizens of Paradise - like the Lord Jesus Christ did. Which means there is hope for them in the Resurrection and Judgment.

Else - why would the Lord Jesus Christ make the effort to preach to them?

And Hell is a concept often mentioned in the Bible - so I don't understand why you claim that you cannot find it.

Hell is where the willfully disobedient (i.e. "wicked") go and are tormented by Satan and his minions - but this also is a temporary condition - because after the wicked spirits of Hell are Resurrected and Judged - Hell is cast away into the "lake of fire" along with Death and with those whose names are not found in the Book of Life.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:12-15)

This makes sense considering that the Lord Jesus Christ promised that all sins will be forgiven Men - exempting the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." (Matthew 12:31)

I believe that the time spent in either Prison or Hell is the means of these spirits being forgiven. They must endure a punishment first before being forgiven.

Different punishments affixed to different degrees of disobedience.

that’s a lot of ‘interesting’ interpretations

people can get peace and comfort by reading some of the ‘red’ words, I have found

“For my yoke is easy and my burden is light”

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

OK...half the job done outside and I ran out of puff.....so....I'm back.


Good question.....
When Jesus was born as a human, he was alive in the flesh for thirty three and a half years....only three and a half years as Messiah....an assignment he took up willingly at his baptism.

After his death, he was in his tomb for three days and nights as he himself prophesied. (Matthew 12:38-40)
When he was resurrected, he was raised as a spirit, not in the flesh. (1 Peter 3:18) Like other spirit beings he was able to materialize "flesh and bone" as he said. (Luke 24:39) Angels always materialized because it was against God's law to communicate with 'spirits' (demons) who could impersonate others. (Deuteronomy 18:90-12) They are deceivers. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)
So Jesus materialized too. He even disappeared (dematerialized) right before their eyes on one occasion. (Luke 24:30-31)

So now we have a spiritual Jesus who has returned to his Father in heaven to carry out a promise....
John 14:2 NKJV...
" In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Not my favorite translation because there are no "mansions" .....the word in Greek is "monē" which means a dwelling place. Dunno where they got mansions....wishful thinking maybe?

Anyhow, the promise was that he was going away to prepare a place for them in his Father's house. So at best "rooms" where they would dwell. (giving them an earthly or figurative definition of heavenly things). No human really knows what heaven looks like, except maybe in visions.

During the 40 days that he stayed on earth to encourage and strengthen his apostles, he "appeared" to them many times....but he did not stay with then as he had done for the previous three and a half years.

When it was time for him to ascend into heaven to rejoin his Father as the Logos (which means "one who speaks for another", hence he is called the "Word") he was going back with another assignment....that of setting up the heavenly Kingdom. All the promises he made to his apostles and disciples were in connection with a death and resurrection like his, so that they would join him later, when he was to come back for them. (John 13:36; John 14:3) They would then be resurrected like he was....in the spirit.

The rest of mankind in their graves would be resurrected later. (John 5:28-29)

So the picture thus far is that of Jesus promising his disciples a place in heaven that he would prepare for them on his return there. They did not fully understand the implications of the Kingdom or their place in it as yet because the promised holy spirit would come, and with their anointing they would fully understand where they were going and why. That happened at Pentecost. But their heavenly resurrection would have to wait till he came back for them. When was that to be? No one knew....and it really didn't matter because thousands of years would pass before he was to return. Those in their graves would all sleep peacefully until then. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)


Since his promises were to the collective of his disciples at the time, those chosen for heavenly life were a limited number....they were to be "kings and priests" as co-rulers with Christ in his Kingdom (Revelation 20:6) which was to "come" at God's pre-determined time. It would cleanse the earth of all wickedness, and replace failed and corrupted human rulership with the one we should have had at the beginning. (Daniel 2:44)
I believe that Christ has indeed returned already because he gave us certain events within a time period which would identify the time of his "presence" not his "coming". (Matthew 24:3-14)
By mistranslating "parousia" as "coming" the churches are looking for a physical manifestation of Christ himself, but that was to come after all the other signs that he gave were in evidence....as they are now. Jesus is already ruling and he is guiding his disciples in the work that he assigned them to do before he left. (Matthew 28:19-20)

We are in "the last days" of increasing turmoil where the planet and all its inhabitants are under assault from so many sides. As Paul wrote....
2 Timothy 3:1-5...
"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!" (NKJV)
These traits in humankind have never been in clearer evidence, with less excuse for any of them in this 21st century. We are not uneducated savages and yet mankind are still behaving this way, and its getting worse, just as Jesus said...
Matthew 24:37-39.....
"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

The heavenly Kingdom will rule earthly subjects because it is a governmental arrangement....a "king" and his "dom"ain. Jesus is the King and the earth is his domain. He has those who were chosen to be his assistants, every one of whom has lived as a human being on earth, so they understand the human condition and will lead humankind back to God in reconciliation, like Jesus in a kind and compassionate way. (Revelation 14:1-4)

Revelation 21:2-4...
"Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

This is an earthly setting because God is with mankind....eliminating all the woes and stresses of this world and ushering in a "new world" of righteousness.


Since the Bible does not indicate such a thing, where did you get that idea?

The "new heavens and new earth" are spoken about four times in the scriptures.....twice in the prophesies of Isaiah...foreshadowing the paradise conditions when the earth is restored to its original state, (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22) once in 2 Peter 3:13 and again in Revelation 21:1. All looking forward to the future paradise on earth as it was meant to be in the beginning. Its not a new planet. (Ecclesiastes 1:4) Its a new beginning....

The physical earth isn't going anywhere.....it is going to receive a cleansing and new tenants who will love their Creator and each other as well as looking after all the creature who will be under their care.
This is what God purposed in the beginning and he always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)


All genuine Christians are "oddballs" Join the club.

hey Deeje

how are you doing today?

i just now found your message, and will have to take it quite slow

i may be much younger than you but I’m also much slower

i tried to do the quote thing here, but it failed

I will try again

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

When Jesus was born as a human, he was alive in the flesh for thirty three and a half years....only three and a half years as Messiah....an assignment he took up willingly at his baptism.

if Jesus was only 3 1/2 years as messiah, what was he doing here?

Luke 2:49-50 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

also, why do they not understand him?

it looks like I was successful here with my quote copying ability, so I will try more

just be patient please

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

I didn't mean no bugs. Just no bugs that cause pain or sickness. No mosquitoes biting us. In Eden, animals didn't eat each other, and since it says the lion and lamb will lay together, I guess they will both eat plants.

it has been fun chatting with you

peace

 

[Deeje]

i just now found your message, and will have to take it quite slow

i may be much younger than you but I’m also much slower

Now listen here young'un, you respect your elders now....ya hear me?

if Jesus was only 3 1/2 years as messiah, what was he doing here?

He was born into a poor but devout Jewish family who abided strictly by Jewish law. In order to fulfill messianic prophesy, he had to be born of a virgin, in the tribe of Judah, and in a specific town...a little place called Bethlehem (there were two of them and the prophesy stated which one).....these are things he could never have orchestrated himself.
How many humans can be born of a virgin? How God orchestrated that was masterful.

On the eighth day, he was circumcised according to Jewish law, committing him to the Abrahamic covenant. No Jew would accept as a teacher any man who was not circumcised.

He grew up in this large but very faithful Jewish family gaining all the experience needed to fulfill his role as Messiah. He would make a perfect King because of this life experience, knowing what it is like to grow up as a human...childhood to maturity.

As the firstborn male in the family, he was committed to care for his (now apparently) widowed mother until he was 30 years of age...the age he was when he presented himself for baptism. There were at least 6 other children in the family 4 of whom were males. So when he began his ministry after selecting the 12 apostles, he fulfilled that assignment for the next three and a half years. Other family members would have cared for his mother in the interim. She of all people fully understood the circumstances of his conception, and the role that the angel Gabriel said he would play.

Interestingly, as he was dying, he committed the care of his mother to the apostle John, as he was considering his mother's spiritual welfare because his siblings were not yet convinced that he was the Messiah....understandable because he was just their older brother......their faith came later after his death and resurrection.
We know that his brother James wrote the book bearing his name in the NT.

Luke 2:49-50 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

also, why do they not understand him?

If he spoke like that no wonder !

LOL

And this is why you need to lose the KJV......

What did that just say....???
How about a more modern translation...?
"He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?” 50 But they did not understand what he said to them. (NKJV)
That's better....what's the setting? Mary and Joseph had been beside themselves with worry...they had lost their son in a big city for three days!.....there was no room for interpretation of something deeper than what he said......they would understand later.

Take your time...it's an amazing story.

it looks like I was successful here with my quote copying ability, so I will try more

just be patient please

Patience is the one thing I have plenty of.....in order to be a teacher, you have to go at the pace of your students.

When I speak about spiritual subjects, its important to know where my audience is at.....which is why I asked you a little about yourself. I wasn't being nosy, just trying to gauge what your level of knowledge was so that I could converse appropriately. I don't want to talk up to people or down to them. Eye level is good.