Authority of the apostles

[John1.12]

Then you really don't fully believe what's in the NT, as certain patterns are really quite clear. But that's quite OK as I question almost everything [I'm an anthropologist, and that's pretty much just our nature]. Thus, it's obviously your choice to make what you choose to believe v not.

The Church has been around for almost 2000 years, and it was this same exact Church that chose the canon of the Bible during the 4th century that you are using. That doesn't give us any kind of monopoly on the Truth, but we pretty much do have a clue on what it teaches.

BTW, I originally belonged to a fundamentalist Protestant church, which I left for several reasons when I was in my 20's.

How did you become a Christian?

 

[metis]

Thats the issue .

Meaning...?

 

[metis]

How did you become a Christian?

It's a loooooooooooong story, but I'll give you a brief synopsis.

After leaving my fundamentalist church, I became quite agnostic for almost a decade, but I did go to mass occasionally with my wife as she was and is a devout Catholic. Then I began to have a strong feeling to return back to Christianity, such as one might call "born again, so I converted to Catholicism after researching how the early Church saw itself.

However, about 20 years later I saw a "discrepancy" over the issue of "Messiah" between the OT and NT, and this led to me to convert to Judaism whereas I was quite active for two decades. I had become victim to literalism, which I had never believed in before, thus this is why I had left the Church [another long story].

But then starting about 7 years ago, I began to have "premonitions", which I had never had believed in, but I had a hard time trying to figure out what these were "telling" me. After almost two years of this driving me crazy, I got a repeatedly strong impulse to go back to St. Thomas More Student Parish [see my signature at the bottom of my posts] whereas I had gone to 50+ years ago when dating another Catholic woman which, btw, is over a two-hour drive away. So, I went, and it was during the Lord's Prayer whereas I realized that I was being "called back" to the Church. However, I don't like making snap decisions, thus I "sat" on this for a few months trying to check and see whether this was the right move.

After this, I rather secretly talked with the priest at the church my wife and I attend, told him what I was going through including the fact that I always tend to question things, and he welcomed me back. However, I didn't tell my wife at first.

About three weeks later, my wife was going up to receive the eucharist and I was behind her, and she shook her head as to say that I can't do this, but I just smiled. It took her a minute or so, but then she finally smiled as she realized what I had done [I had done it once before when I converted the first time].

That's the story in brief.

How about you?

 

[John1.12]

It's a loooooooooooong story, but I'll give you a brief synopsis.

After leaving my fundamentalist church, I became quite agnostic for almost a decade, but I did go to mass occasionally with my wife as she was and is a devout Catholic. Then I began to have a strong feeling to return back to Christianity, such as one might call "born again, so I converted to Catholicism after researching how the early Church saw itself.

However, about 20 years later I saw a "discrepancy" over the issue of "Messiah" between the OT and NT, and this led to me to convert to Judaism whereas I was quite active for two decades. I had become victim to literalism, which I had never believed in before, thus this is why I had left the Church [another long story].

But then starting about 7 years ago, I began to have "premonitions", which I had never had believed in, but I had a hard time trying to figure out what these were "telling" me. After almost two years of this driving me crazy, I got a repeatedly strong impulse to go back to St. Thomas More Student Parish [see my signature at the bottom of my posts] whereas I had gone to 50+ years ago when dating another Catholic woman which, btw, is over a two-hour drive away. So, I went, and it was during the Lord's Prayer whereas I realized that I was being "called back" to the Church. However, I don't like making snap decisions, thus I "sat" on this for a few months trying to check and see whether this was the right move.

After this, I rather secretly talked with the priest at the church my wife and I attend, told him what I was going through including the fact that I always tend to question things, and he welcomed me back. However, I didn't tell my wife at first.

About three weeks later, my wife was going up to receive the eucharist and I was behind her, and she shook her head as to say that I can't do this, but I just smiled. It took her a minute or so, but then she finally smiled as she realized what I had done [I had done it once before when I converted the first time].

That's the story in brief.

How about you?

With respect , and may be you a communication thing , but as far as I can tell you did not become a Christian? You haven't given the criteria as I would see the bible says .

 

[metis]

With respect , and may be you a communication thing , but as far as I can tell you did not become a Christian? You haven't given the criteria as I would see the bible says .

Matt.7[1]"Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
[3] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
[4] Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
[5] You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye..."


The above is one reason why I left the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in that also included the anti-Catholic bigotry that they spewed out. OTOH, our church teaches that this is not our role and that we should leave this all to God.

BTW, the other two reasons I left was because of the anti-science position of my church as well as the problem with overt racism. Fortunately, my old church is no longer that way.

 

[John1.12]

Matt.7[1]"Judge not, that you be not judged.
[2] For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
[3] Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
[4] Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye?
[5] You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye..."


The above is one reason why I left the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in that also included the anti-Catholic bigotry that they spewed out. OTOH, our church teaches that this is not our role and that we should leave this all to God.

BTW, the other two reasons I left was because of the anti-science position of my church as well as the problem with overt racism. Fortunately, my old church is no longer that way.

You never mentioned how you became a Christian according to the bible.
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you believed in vain.

3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[metis]

You never mentioned how you became a Christian according to the bible.
1¶Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you believed in vain.

3¶For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

You have got to be kidding-- except I'm afraid you're not. Did I have to spell everything out for you? An honest person asks, but you can't even do that. So utterly pathetic.

It is the above kind of judgmentalist bigotry that reminds me why I left my fundamentalist Protestant church to eventually join a church that doesn't stoop to the above low. And it's things like the above that all too often gives Christianity such a hypocritical appearance, such as that which Gandhi noted when he noted these fundamentalists all too often "...forget his [Jesus'] message]". Not only do you do yourself harm by acting this way, you also help make Christianity look like an exercise in bigotry because you're "saved" as you strut around like a peacock.

I've had more than enough, but thanks anyhow for reminding me why I left the kind of myopic bigotry that I personally experienced decades ago.

 

[John1.12]

You have got to be kidding-- except I'm afraid you're not. Did I have to spell everything out for you? An honest person asks, but you can't even do that. So utterly pathetic.

It is the above kind of judgmentalist bigotry that reminds me why I left my fundamentalist Protestant church to eventually join a church that doesn't stoop to the above low. And it's things like the above that all too often gives Christianity such a hypocritical appearance, such as that which Gandhi noted when he noted these fundamentalists all too often "...forget his [Jesus'] message]". Not only do you do yourself harm by acting this way, you also help make Christianity look like an exercise in bigotry because you're "saved" as you strut around like a peacock.

I've had more than enough, but thanks anyhow for reminding me why I left the kind of myopic bigotry that I personally experienced decades ago.

I have no problem answering the same question. In fact the bible commands us to .
1 Peter 3:15
King James Version

15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[Truth in love]

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments


Must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Acts 2:42

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

We are not commanded to read and make doctrine for ourselves but obey those who God puts in authority to teach the Christian Faith!

First off thanks for sharing. I agree with many of the points shared.

However having read the Bible much over the years I want to share 2 Thess 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The church in Christ’s time came to an end.

 

[Truth in love]

heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away
All scripture is inspired

does not say anything about exegesis or context etc.

So please share your faith

is peter the rock that Christ built the new covenant church upon Matt 16:18
Does peter and his successors have the keys of the kingdom of david
Is the prime minister of the king called father
Isa 22
Is the church built on the apostles eph 2:20
Thanks

“Revelation” is the rock. Revelation was largely flowing through him as we see with the vision of the unclean beats.

 

[metis]

The church in Christ’s time came to an end.

Then did Jesus lie when he said that the Paraclete would help guide the Church until the end of time?

 

[Truth in love]

Then did Jesus lie when he said that the Paraclete would help guide the Church until the end of time?

Reference?

 

[metis]

Reference?

Matt.16[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So, why would Jesus build his Church only to let it die? Why would he appoint Apostles if all was to die after them?

 

[Truth in love]

Matt.16[17] And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So, why would Jesus build his Church only to let it die? Why would he appoint Apostles if all was to die after them?

1. That is very different from the statement you made earlier and implied I was calling Christ a liar.

2. It appears that the apostles spent several days in great sorrow at the death of Christ. Their views were limited and they could not see the big picture.

3. The Bible promised a falling away and a restitution of all things Act 3:21. Who am I to deny what the Bible says?

 

[metis]

1. That is very different from the statement you made earlier and implied I was calling Christ a liar.

I did not state nor imply that as I put it in the form of a question.

2. It appears that the apostles spent several days in great sorrow at the death of Christ. Their views were limited and they could not see the big picture.

So, you see the "big picture" but they didn't? So, what they did after Jesus' death was wrong? Such as...?

3. The Bible promised a falling away and a restitution of all things Act 3:21. Who am I to deny what the Bible says?

Which says Acts3[21] "whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."

So, how does that supposedly contradict what I posted? And what about the other questions I asked, such as why would Jesus supposedly allow his Church to disintegrate after his death? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

 

[Truth in love]

I did not state nor imply that as I put it in the form of a question.

So, you see the "big picture" but they didn't? So, what they did after Jesus' death was wrong? Such as...?

Which says Acts3[21] "whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old."

So, how does that supposedly contradict what I posted? And what about the other questions I asked, such as why would Jesus supposedly allow his Church to disintegrate after his death? How does that make any sense whatsoever?

The church set up in Christ's time was prophesied to end and be restored.
Not sure how many say this big picture at the time. Some did.

 

[metis]

The church set up in Christ's time was prophesied to end and be restored.
Not sure how many say this big picture at the time. Some did.

That's simply not true nor is it even remotely logical based on what Jesus started and taught. Maybe reread the NT instead of letting some group fast-talk you into believing the absurd. Jesus started his Kingdom during his life, so why in the world would he allow it to disintegrate into nothing even for a while? Why would he promise Peter and the Others that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" and then supposedly allow the "gates of hell" to prevail?

 

[Truth in love]

That's simply not true nor is it even remotely logical based on what Jesus started and taught. Maybe reread the NT instead of letting some group fast-talk you into believing the absurd. Jesus started his Kingdom during his life, so why in the world would he allow it to disintegrate into nothing even for a while? Why would he promise Peter and the Others that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" and then supposedly allow the "gates of hell" to prevail?

It is what the Bible actually says. Clearly it’s not what you want to here, but I’m not going to pretend the Bible says otherwise.

The gates of hell not prevailing is vague. The long term victory is assured even when things go bad like the Apostles being killed. And “It” could mean revelation.

 

[metis]

It is what the Bible actually says. Clearly it’s not what you want to here, but I’m not going to pretend the Bible says otherwise.

Clearly, to anyone who has studied Christian theology, this simply isn't the case scripturally nor even one using basic common sense [logic]. And we know this for certain not only scripturally but also using early Chiurch history.

Thus, let me recommend you find a denomination that actually teaches the Gospel and doesn't avoid studying and teaching about the history of the early Church. What you are being taught is a bastardization of the Gospel, thus doing some serious study of the early Church can and will change your mind if you are at least open-minded enough to accept the results. I went through that process myself, and I experienced that it can be quite traumatic.

 

[Truth in love]

Clearly, to anyone who has studied Christian theology, this simply isn't the case scripturally nor even one using basic common sense [logic]. And we know this for certain not only scripturally but also using early Chiurch history.

Thus, let me recommend you find a denomination that actually teaches the Gospel and doesn't avoid studying and teaching about the history of the early Church. What you are being taught is a bastardization of the Gospel, thus doing some serious study of the early Church can and will change your mind if you are at least open-minded enough to accept the results. I went through that process myself, and I experienced that it can be quite traumatic.

Thanks for the advice. I’m in the Church of Jesus Christ. I’m both humbled and honored to bare the Melchizedek Priesthood. I’ve studied the Bible and church history the better part of 30 years.

mad for the gospel I don’t accept the “the Bible does not mean what it says” on salvation for the dead, the restitution and many other items that professed Christians keep saying. I respect everyone’s right to believe as they wish and choose whom they will serve. I will serve the Lord and Redeemer in his kingdom.