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Is Jesus God?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Using your analytical and logical abilities, do you see anything in any of these verses that would show that Jesus is God?
Yes, to quite a lot of those verses. Some could be read another way. But some are pretty straight ahead saying that, "The Logos was God", right off the bat. The others I could expound upon with some great detail if you wished.

But I wish to preface all of that to say this is what the writers of the NT books had in mind, Paul particularly with his Cosmic Christ, were intending to say something metaphysical about the nature the Divine and the nature of Christ as Divine. Yes. That's pretty clear. My personal views on the nature of the Divine have additional perspectives to add.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I don't know what you mean when you say they've had 1700 years to alter verses. How could it have been that long? Do you mean they translated the verses according to their preconceived understanding?
Yes, exactly. Even added some, as in the Comma Johanneum aka the Johannine Comma.

Take care.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I don't know what you mean when you say they've had 1700 years to alter verses. How could it have been that long? Do you mean they translated the verses according to their preconceived understanding?

I doubt that particular discussion was speaking about translation. In fact, it definitely is not. When someone says "Alter", it is not just translation. Of course I dont agree with the 1700 year distance from the early text at all though.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Most Christians believe that John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 mean that Jesus was God. I do not believe that those verses mean that Jesus is God. God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.


John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:1-3 are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made through God since God created the heavens and the earth.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.
I believe John 1.1
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe John 1.1
So do I, but I believe it is about God, not about Jesus.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
 

John1.12

Free gift
So do I, but I believe it is about God, not about Jesus.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Look at how much junk you just placed onto one verse . Its clear its referring to Jesus . The whole chapter is. Good grief man . You have been brain washed with this cult you are following . Wake up man .
 

John1.12

Free gift
So do I, but I believe it is about God, not about Jesus.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word was the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1 doesn't say this .
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Look at how much junk you just placed onto one verse . Its clear its referring to Jesus . The whole chapter is. Good grief man . You have been brain washed with this cult you are following . Wake up man .
You will notice that they only tend to torturously rework the words of Jesus that allude to his divinity. His other words seem straight forward to them. People who are not a part of the sect can see what they are doing but inside the circle of confirmation bias is a whole different world.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thats not how its written any of the manuscripts you could find. This is an inference.
Yes it is. The third clause of the first verse is in the anarthrous form, which points to the nature of the Logos. That nature was Theos, or Divine. "And the Logos was Divine", or "Divinity", in other words.

But if that isn't enough, the entire context speaks of Logos as the preexisting creative agent of God, or God manifesting, creating, expressing, etc. The whole prologue of John is about what the Logos is, and how that Logos continued its eternal 'role' as manifestor by becoming flesh in verse 14.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes it is. The third clause of the first verse is in the anarthrous form, which points to the nature of the Logos. That nature was Theos, or Divine. "And the Logos was Divine", or "Divinity", in other words.

Theos en ho logos. So saying Logos was divine is correct. But what I responded to was "Logos was God" which is inference.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No. Only when they’re twisted, and other Scriptures ignored.

Keep in mind that Christendom has had 1700 years to alter certain verses to suit their trinitarian agenda. But almost always (though not in every case), the immediate surrounding context (and understanding the Greek grammar) will refute that understanding.

I believe that does not account for this passage:
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon4 his shoulder,
and his name shall be called5
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
on the throne of David and over his kingdom,
to establish it and to uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time forth and forevermore.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Hello again! :D
Yeah, some Christians really push that idea, to the point where they can claim that it was Jesus who led the Israelites out of Egypt, or knocked down the walls of Jericho, and that every word in the bible was from him.

But Deists can't help you that much because we accept that Jesus WAS a part of God. But so are you... even the chair you sit upon..... every particle in existences... part of God.


Ah.... that's a problem. After studying bus timetables I've occasionally got on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction. But I'll try....


Trouble is, Christians had lots of time to fiddle with and manipulate their bible, just as they fiddled with, manipulated and reversed in to other cultures and religions. Dodgy.

And fundamentalist Christianity can be dodgy and dangerous, in my opinion.

I believe God is one and does not have parts. Jesus is not part of God; He is God in the flesh.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
If He is, then there are too many graven images of Him around.

Ciao

- viole

I believe that would be bad if the image were worshipped but I have never seen that in a protestant church.

Rev 13:15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Look at how much junk you just placed onto one verse . Its clear its referring to Jesus . The whole chapter is. Good grief man . You have been brain washed with this cult you are following . Wake up man .
It is obvious to any rational person that these verses refer to God.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jesus did not create anything, God created everything. Everyone knows that except a brainwashed Trinitarian Christian.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We all know that many people saw Jesus. Therefore deductive reasoning tells any rational person that Jesus cannot be God.
 

John1.12

Free gift
It is obvious to any rational person that these verses refer to God.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jesus did not create anything, God created everything. Everyone knows that except a brainwashed Trinitarian Christian.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We all know that many people saw Jesus. Therefore deductive reasoning tells any rational person that Jesus cannot be God.
18 No man hath seen God( The Father ) at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
 

John1.12

Free gift
It is obvious to any rational person that these verses refer to God.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jesus did not create anything, God created everything. Everyone knows that except a brainwashed Trinitarian Christian.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We all know that many people saw Jesus. Therefore deductive reasoning tells any rational person that Jesus cannot be God.
"It is obvious to any rational person that these verses refer to God."
Yes thats my point.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
18 No man hath seen God( The Father ) at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Which means that Jesus is not God.
Jesus was not God incarnated in the flesh, Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God manifests Himself in the flesh in every age. "Him Whom God will make manifest" is Baha'u'llah.

“Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned…. That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270
 
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