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Paganism

firedragon

Veteran Member
This is in interfaith so it's a no-debate zone. I'm not looking for a debate, I'm looking for opinions, academic, spiritual, or otherwise. Naturally, this is in regards to my new religion so this is more for spitballing ideas than debate. Thanks.

I've noticed that many Pagan paths include such things as magic (in AE, 'heka'), astrology, spellwork, magic rituals and so on. While astrology as Western Pagans understand it doesn't really occur in Kemetic thought until the Greeks came along, there was definitely a kind of astrology. My issue is that these kinds of ideas are nonsensical to me and always have seemed so. Put me right if I'm wrong, but Paganisms in general seem to hold the fundamental idea that humans can have some impact on their environments whether it be with heka or spellwork, and that the environment in turn can have effects on humans, such as astrology.

Would you say that's right?

These ideas are wholly contrary to what I believe and would you say it's possible to be a Pagan, at least in any meaningful sense, whilst not believing in these principles? Is there are Pagan idea of what I would call non-interference?

Takk.

Who is a pagan, is something that has changed, and will keep changing. In the ancient world, anyone who was not Jewish was a pagan. In the modern world, with your description in your post, even Buddhists fall into that category. Not Buddhism per se, but Buddhists because they engage in all of those things in one form or another. Especially astrology, magic, spellwork etc. When you say magic it seems strange, but they call it "Manthra". Spell work seems but they call it "Japa". Astrology is not so strange but they call it "Jyothishya". They have all of these practices.

So do Hindus. But it is quite rare to hear anyone calling them "Pagans".

Anyway, you are right. Astrology is absolutely what you said. The environment, or more precisely the "Kranthivali" or the path of the sun, which very rarely is referred to has a huge effect on peoples lives. The sun passes through the constellation Meena to Mesha and that's the new year. April 13th night. (But actually they have got the date wrong).

But people believe these magic matters and spellwork can have an effect on them which could change their "daivya" or "destination" even though the astrology is not in their favour.

And mind you, I was referring to Buddhists. Not some other Pagan who worships Thor or Odin. Just that they are not called "pagan".

Being pagan is only now thought to be all of this. In the ancient world worshiping any other god other than the Jewish God was considered Pagan, and it was not a derogatory term. Its just another person. Thus, if you define yourself, you could be pagan without whatever you wish to be without.

Peace.
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
Logically speaking, if God is "in control" God is controlling everyone.
So if God controls good people God also controls bad people,
Is the rapist or murderer also doing what God wants him to do?

Yes, everyone is an important part of God's perfect plan. God gave 10 commandments, man turned those 10 into 612 or so, Jesus reduced the number to 2 to clear things up so that everyone would be on the same page ha ha...

1. Love God with all your heart all your mind and all your soul.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

...my 9 year old daughter came home from Catholic school a few months ago reciting the 10 commandments, I tell her that's great but Jesus cut those down to 2, she smiled and said really what are they. I told her, she thought about it, her smile went away and said that's not fair, she said if I love god with all my heart then there's nothing left for anyone else. I say only when you love god with all your heart can you love your neighbor as yourself realizing you both play an important part in god's perfect plan. I've more work to do with her ha ha, probably with you too, so don't give up on me yet! :)
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My view, and I don't mean to offend anyone, Jinn (hidden beings with powers and can infuse souls with psychic abilities etc) are cool and all, but chosen leaders of God have proofs from God and lead you back to God and can literally do anything a jinn can do and are lot more powerful as the latter power is something only God can sustain. They can enable the soul with whatever magic anyone seeks to acquire from Jinn.

You do these rituals and does the energy seem holy and pure, or unholy and something is suspicious?

Don't take risks, find proofs, what you are saying is why doesn't it have structure and guidance and authority, it's because it's a bunch of ignorant jinn playing with minds of humans, isn't it obvious? (sorry if I offended anyone, this is my viewpoint after reading new age books and being into that stuff for five years).
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Justice and order.
Then it strikes me that your practice would naturally proceed from making sure your actions were just and you inner and outer life manifested order.

I'm not sure what that really entails for you, but my guiding principle and practice is to try to put my beliefs into practice and learn from my constant mistakes.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, everyone is an important part of God's perfect plan. God gave 10 commandments, man turned those 10 into 612 or so, Jesus reduced the number to 2 to clear things up so that everyone would be on the same page ha ha...

1. Love God with all your heart all your mind and all your soul.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

...my 9 year old daughter came home from Catholic school a few months ago reciting the 10 commandments, I tell her that's great but Jesus cut those down to 2, she smiled and said really what are they. I told her, she thought about it, her smile went away and said that's not fair, she said if I love god with all my heart then there's nothing left for anyone else. I say only when you love god with all your heart can you love your neighbor as yourself realizing you both play an important part in god's perfect plan. I've more work to do with her ha ha, probably with you too, so don't give up on me yet! :)
I believe that there are a lot more than two commandments, even a lot more than 10, because there has been an update from God for this age through Baha'u'llah. The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is Bahá'u'lláh's book of laws, written in Arabic around 1873 while He was still imprisoned within the city of 'Akká. It is considered the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith.
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
I believe that there are a lot more than two commandments, even a lot more than 10, because there has been an update from God for this age through Baha'u'llah. The Kitáb-i-Aqdas is Bahá'u'lláh's book of laws, written in Arabic around 1873 while He was still imprisoned within the city of 'Akká. It is considered the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith.

Hmmm, do you choose which ones you obey?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
But that means it's without authority, and to me that's not a personally acceptable form of religion as I don't know that what I'm doing is right practice. It's also still lonely.
Reject any teaching or practice that propagates greed, hatred, or delusion as leading to long-term harm. Accept teachings and practices that propagates a lack of greed, hatred, or delusion as leading to long-term benefit. (Borrowed from the Kalama Sutta.)
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
It's also still lonely.

Sorry I didn't address this part. I inadvertently gleaned over it primarily because it doesn't really resonate with me given I relish my solitude.

I think regardless of what path you choose to walk, unless there is an emphasis given to community, and unless you join and participate in that community, you will be facing the same concerns with loneliness.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I've just found it all nonsense, to be honest lol.

That's my feeling too:)

Concerning your question as to the influence of the stars and planets on the life of a believer; such ideas should be entirely dissociated from the Teachings. The passage on p. 133 of the 'Gleanings' bears no reference whatsoever to this matter. As to illness or poverty; such calamities may be either irrevocable or, and it is often the case, they may be avoided. There is no reference in the Teachings as to whether the stars have any influence on healing such diseases. These astrological ideas are for the most part sheer superstitions.
Shoghi Effendi, Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects, pp. 9, 10

The friends should be encouraged not to waste time on such things as astrology, etc., which you mention. They cannot be forbidden to do so. The exercise of our free will to choose to do the right things is much more important.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 516

Astrology | Bahá’í Quotes
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
That's my feeling too:)

Concerning your question as to the influence of the stars and planets on the life of a believer; such ideas should be entirely dissociated from the Teachings. The passage on p. 133 of the 'Gleanings' bears no reference whatsoever to this matter. As to illness or poverty; such calamities may be either irrevocable or, and it is often the case, they may be avoided. There is no reference in the Teachings as to whether the stars have any influence on healing such diseases. These astrological ideas are for the most part sheer superstitions.
Shoghi Effendi, Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects, pp. 9, 10

The friends should be encouraged not to waste time on such things as astrology, etc., which you mention. They cannot be forbidden to do so. The exercise of our free will to choose to do the right things is much more important.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 516

Astrology | Bahá’í Quotes

While not astrology, I think some of this has application for helping others.
https://www.traumaanxietycenter.com/post/welcome-to-the-world-of-tarot-based-therapy

Edit: and that's what's most important, helping others, right? Helping them tell their stories.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Rival , I know you may not care for this idea....but, really, how do you think those ancient cultures that worshipped Molech or Chemosh, requiring something as hideous as <gulp> child sacrifice <gulp>, ever got any traction, if there was not some kind of force behind it? Jeremiah 7:31.

Just think about it: what kind of intimidation / threat / fear would it take for you to offer up your firstborn?
It had to be something drastically scary, to establish such a ritual!

No debate here, I just want you to meditate on those facts.

My opinion, is that Yahweh was right to exact such a heavy penalty for the Israelites practicing pagan worship....I’d get away from it.

We’ve spoken about Exodus 7 before....you said that Pharaoh’s magic priests just used “sleight of hand” techniques.
Was that what Yahweh was doing? No. Then why were those priests even trying to stop those plagues? Sleight-of-hand ain’t gonna work! In fact, the account tells us, they could duplicate the first two (Exodus 7:22; Exodus 8:7), but not stop them.

I wish you the best.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
That's my feeling too:)

Concerning your question as to the influence of the stars and planets on the life of a believer; such ideas should be entirely dissociated from the Teachings. The passage on p. 133 of the 'Gleanings' bears no reference whatsoever to this matter. As to illness or poverty; such calamities may be either irrevocable or, and it is often the case, they may be avoided. There is no reference in the Teachings as to whether the stars have any influence on healing such diseases. These astrological ideas are for the most part sheer superstitions.
Shoghi Effendi, Spiritualism, Reincarnation and Related Subjects, pp. 9, 10

The friends should be encouraged not to waste time on such things as astrology, etc., which you mention. They cannot be forbidden to do so. The exercise of our free will to choose to do the right things is much more important.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 516

Astrology | Bahá’í Quotes

May I define astrology as the motion of hands on a clock. If I have to go to work tomorrow morning, I will set the alarm, and the hands of the clock will be in a position to alert me that it is time to wake up, shower, eat breakfast, and drive to work. Many people in America live their lives this way.

The motion of planets behaves like the motion of hands on a clock. When certain astrological events occur, a set amount of time has passed.

All we need now is a psychic prediction.

Hypothetically (for purposes of this discussion), if a psychic predicted that there would be a major earthquake in California (at least along the San Andreas fault, and connected fault lines) on December 3, 2021, starting at the Salton Sea but triggering multiple quakes along various fault lines, then we would need a clock mechanism to let people know when that quake will happen. That is what astrology does....it keeps track of time.

It is critical that we get a prediction from a reliable psychic in order for astrology to work.

The Christian faith believes in ESP (Extrasensory Perception). Revelation is an entire chapter of the bible dedicated to telling us not to attack Iraq or face God's wrath, and Revelation contains predictions describing God's wrath.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
@Rival , I know you may not care for this idea....but, really, how do you think those ancient cultures that worshipped Molech or Chemosh, requiring something as hideous as <gulp> child sacrifice <gulp>, ever got any traction, if there was not some kind of force behind it? Jeremiah 7:31.

Just think about it: what kind of intimidation / threat / fear would it take for you to offer up your firstborn?
It had to be something drastically scary, to establish such a ritual!

No debate here, I just want you to meditate on those facts.

My opinion, is that Yahweh was right to exact such a heavy penalty for the Israelites practicing pagan worship....I’d get away from it.

We’ve spoken about Exodus 7 before....you said that Pharaoh’s magic priests just used “sleight of hand” techniques.
Was that what Yahweh was doing? No. Then why were those priests even trying to stop those plagues? Sleight-of-hand ain’t gonna work! In fact, the account tells us, they could duplicate the first two (Exodus 7:22; Exodus 8:7), but not stop them.

I wish you the best.
Science is currently stopping the COVID plague, but many Christians deem science to be the foe of religion. Notice that the Vatican (pope) put travel restrictions around itself, not trusting that God would protect them.
 
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