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Non-Evolved Conciousness

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

"Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Just off the top of my head, I'd say this is a pretty weak hypothesis. 'Quantization' is an "after-the-fact" ideological (conceptual) overlay. A way of "looking back", so to speak. But this theory is presuming it to be a participating factor. And I don't buy it. Nor do I buy the idea that qualitative processing is "immeasurable". It is subjective, yes, but not abjectly immeasurable.

I see no reason to assume that consciousness did not evolve from animate matter (life) the same way life evolved from inanimate matter. Everything that exists appears to have "evolved" (emerged) through the same set of fundamental limitations and possibilities innate to the expression of energy, itself.
 
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beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

"Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."
If consciousness, rather than being a 'thing,' is an emergent property arising from the complicated, complex and chaotic interactions of living systems, there is really nothing much to explain, or so it seems to me.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

"Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."
It worries me that the author is
*a Dutch computer scientist and philosopher who has published fundamental theoretical reflections on the mind matter problem." - ie he is not an expert in the field he is talking about.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
It worries me that the author is
*a Dutch computer scientist and philosopher who has published fundamental theoretical reflections on the mind matter problem." - ie he is not an expert in the field he is talking about.

A lot of AI (which is computational and philosophical) research revolves around analyzing conscious experience, so I don't see why his opinion doesn't have some merit.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

"Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."

I disagree with him. His statement
"One problem with this is that, under the premises of materialism, phenomenal consciousness cannot—by definition—have a function"
is incorrect. Consciousness definitely has a function that would be a selective advantage. Increasing awareness of ones environment and ones self allows for more complex behaviors that natural selection did select for. Consciousness is very critical for complex social behaviors. The experiences of color, sound, touch, and taste are products of out nervous system helping us to interpret our environment. The actual qualia does not diminish the fact that the sensation allow for an organism to change a behavior which is a clear advantage for survival.

There is no reason to not accept that increasing neurologic complexity thus increasing neurologic interconnection would not create new and more complex phenomena. After all an atom by itself doses not exabit the same phenomena as when connected to multiple other atoms of different types. The increasing complexity of arrangements of atom have new characteristics and phenomena. Two hydrogens together compared to the complex interaction of all the molecules in an organic membrane. There is a point when those atoms in increasing complex interaction are complex enough to be called living. Why would not increasingly complex neurological interaction be able to become complex enough to be called consciousness.
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
A lot of AI (which is computational and philosophical) research revolves around analyzing conscious experience, so I don't see why his opinion doesn't have some merit.

I think it revolves more around intelligence than consciousness. We do not know if the circuitry of a computer has the same necessary properties as the biological nervous system to generate a conscious experience but this is still a fairly recent field of study.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

"Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."

I'm really not sure why so many people think that phenomenology can't be explained materialistically.

All that is required is to note that certain physical processes inevitably are associated with certain mental processes. We then have an equivalence between the physical and the mental. What else needs explaining?

It feels, to me, like the fact that a current is ultimately a movement of charges. And that produces things like magnetic fields. No further explanation is required for why a magnetic field is produced from a moving charge: it just is.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Consciousness Cannot Have Evolved

An article discussing one researchers opinions on why Consciousness could not have been an evolved process, due to its reliance on qualitative processes which are immeasurable, compared to quantitative.

Feel free to peruse the article, my tiny blurb doesn't cover a full synopsis.

"Phenomenal consciousness cannot have evolved. It can only have been there from the beginning as an intrinsic, irreducible fact of nature. The faster we come to terms with this fact, the faster our understanding of consciousness will progress."
Consciousness can't evolve because it isn't a living organism.
 
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