Wavefunction Collapse and Dreams

[Ostronomos]

There seems to be a link between the "external world" of perception and the internal world of dreams. The reason is unclear. It appears that the brain can become entangled with its environment and when perception is turned inwardly into the world of dreams that link is not severed. This explains why the events in a dream can affect the events in the "external world". For example, when you feel a force in your dream it can be felt by your sleeping body.

 

[exchemist]

It's just rubbish to talk of a macroscopic object the size and temperature of the brain becoming "entangled" with another object.

 

[Ostronomos]

It's just rubbish to talk of a macroscopic object the size and temperature of the brain becoming "entangled" with another object.

It is not.

Reality makes no distinctions between the worlds.

 

[exchemist]

It is not.

Reality makes no distinctions between the worlds.

Reality is that Planck's constant, h ~ 6.63 x 10⁻³⁴ J-sec. This has the consequence that for warm, wet objects with a mass ~1kg, quantum effects are negligible.

 

[George-ananda]

Well some including Nobel Prize winner in Physics DR. Robert Penrose believe that quantum effects produce consciousness and underlie Free Will.

From Wikipedia:

Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR) is a controversial hypothesis that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons. The mechanism is held to be a quantum process called objective reduction that is orchestrated by cellular structures called microtubules. It is proposed that the theory may answer the hard problem of consciousness and provide a mechanism for free will.[1] The hypothesis was first put forward in the early 1990s by Nobel laureate for physics, Roger Penrose, and anaesthesiologist and psychologist Stuart Hameroff. The hypothesis combines approaches from molecular biology, neuroscience, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and quantum gravity.[2][3]

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's just rubbish to talk of a macroscopic object the size and temperature of the brain becoming "entangled" with another object.

I don't know, Mine was a bit entangled last night.

 

[RestlessSoul]

In order for wave function to work - and for psi to have value - the phase element must exist outside the physical universe. Even if only as an abstract concept.

Jerome Cardano, the 16th Century mathematician who pioneered probability theory, and the use of impossible numbers (the sq root of -1), postulated an inaccessible dimension within which information and intelligences dwell. He called this the Aevum.

Quantum theorists such as Louis de Broglie, Niels Bohr and Erwin Schrodinger all wrestled with the concept of quantum factors which can only exist beyond time and space, but which were necessary to make their theories work .

psi in Schrodinger’s equation effectively inhabits a realm outside time and space, something known to physicists as Hilbert space - an abstract space of unlimited dimensions attributed to David Hilbert.

 

[exchemist]

Well some including Nobel Prize winner in Physics DR. Robert Penrose believe that quantum effects produce consciousness and underlie Free Will.

From Wikipedia:

Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR) is a controversial hypothesis that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons. The mechanism is held to be a quantum process called objective reduction that is orchestrated by cellular structures called microtubules. It is proposed that the theory may answer the hard problem of consciousness and provide a mechanism for free will.[1] The hypothesis was first put forward in the early 1990s by Nobel laureate for physics, Roger Penrose, and anaesthesiologist and psychologist Stuart Hameroff. The hypothesis combines approaches from molecular biology, neuroscience, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and quantum gravity.[2][3]

Yes, but that is suggesting processes at the molecular scale inside cellular components, so it is not the same things at all.

Furthermore, the Wiki article on "Quantum Mind", here: Quantum mind - Wikipedia, which has more about Orch OR, shows how poorly this hypothesis has fared:

" Hameroff provided a hypothesis that microtubules would be suitable hosts for quantum behavior.[20] Microtubules are composed of tubulin protein dimer subunits. The dimers each have hydrophobic pockets that are 8 nm apart and that may contain delocalized pi electrons. Tubulins have other smaller non-polar regions that contain pi electron-rich indole rings separated by only about 2 nm. Hameroff proposed that these electrons are close enough to become entangled.[21] Hameroff originally suggested the tubulin-subunit electrons would form a Bose–Einstein condensate, but this was discredited.[22] He then proposed a Frohlich condensate, a hypothetical coherent oscillation of dipolar molecules. However, this too was experimentally discredited.[23]

However, Orch-OR made numerous false biological predictions, and is not an accepted model of brain physiology.[24] In other words, there is a missing link between physics and neuroscience,[25] for instance, the proposed predominance of 'A' lattice microtubules, more suitable for information processing, was falsified by Kikkawa et al.,[26][27] who showed all in vivo microtubules have a 'B' lattice and a seam. The proposed existence of gap junctions between neurons and glial cells was also falsified.[28] Orch-OR predicted that microtubule coherence reaches the synapses via dendritic lamellar bodies (DLBs), however De Zeeuw et al. proved this impossible,[29] by showing that DLBs are located micrometers away from gap junctions.[30]

In January 2014, Hameroff and Penrose claimed that the discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules by Anirban Bandyopadhyay of the National Institute for Materials Science in Japan in March 2013[31] corroborates the Orch-OR theory.[15][32]

Although these theories are stated in a scientific framework, it is difficult to separate them from the personal opinions of the scientist. The opinions are often based on intuition or subjective ideas about the nature of consciousness."

So it looks like a dead end.

 

[exchemist]

In order for wave function to work - and for psi to have value - the phase element must exist outside the physical universe. Even if only as an abstract concept.

Jerome Cardano, the 15th Century mathematician who pioneered probability theory, and the use of impossible numbers (the sq root of -1), postulated an inaccessible dimension within which information and intelligences dwell. He called this the Aevum.

Quantum theorists such as Louis de Broglie, Niels Bohr and Erwin Schrodinger all wrestled with the concept of quantum factors which can only exist beyond time and space, but which were necessary to make their theories work .

psi in Schrodinger’s equation effectively inhabits a realm outside time and space, something known to physicists as Hilbert space - an abstract space of unlimited dimensions attributed to David Hilbert.

Hmm. I think it is mistake to read too much physical significance into mathematical spaces like Hilbert spaces. After all, QM is not the only area in which multi-dimensional mathematical spaces are useful. The idea of phase space has applications in statistical thermodynamics, for instance.

But I'm not a mathematician. A comment from @Polymath257 might be useful, if he drops by.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Hmm. I think it is mistake to read too much physical significance into mathematical spaces like Hilbert spaces. After all, QM is not the only area in which multi-dimensional mathematical spaces are useful. The idea of phase space has applications in statistical thermodynamics, for instance.

But I'm not a mathematician. A comment from @Polymath257 might be useful, if he drops by.

To be honest, my understanding of all this stuff is pretty limited - I’m neither a mathematician nor a physicist. The OP just happened to chime with what I’ve been reading about the history and roots of Quantum Theory - I’m about halfway through The Quantum Astrologer’s Handbook, by Michael Brooks.

The OP, and myself, may be guilty of a fair amount of magical thinking. But so, it seems to me, are those physicists and astronomers working at the boundaries of knowledge and understanding.

Did you finish Carlo Rovelli’s latest book yet btw?

 

[George-ananda]

Yes, but that is suggesting processes at the molecular scale inside cellular components, so it is not the same things at all.

Furthermore, the Wiki article on "Quantum Mind", here: Quantum mind - Wikipedia, which has more about Orch OR, shows how poorly this hypothesis has fared:

" Hameroff provided a hypothesis that microtubules would be suitable hosts for quantum behavior.[20] Microtubules are composed of tubulin protein dimer subunits. The dimers each have hydrophobic pockets that are 8 nm apart and that may contain delocalized pi electrons. Tubulins have other smaller non-polar regions that contain pi electron-rich indole rings separated by only about 2 nm. Hameroff proposed that these electrons are close enough to become entangled.[21] Hameroff originally suggested the tubulin-subunit electrons would form a Bose–Einstein condensate, but this was discredited.[22] He then proposed a Frohlich condensate, a hypothetical coherent oscillation of dipolar molecules. However, this too was experimentally discredited.[23]

However, Orch-OR made numerous false biological predictions, and is not an accepted model of brain physiology.[24] In other words, there is a missing link between physics and neuroscience,[25] for instance, the proposed predominance of 'A' lattice microtubules, more suitable for information processing, was falsified by Kikkawa et al.,[26][27] who showed all in vivo microtubules have a 'B' lattice and a seam. The proposed existence of gap junctions between neurons and glial cells was also falsified.[28] Orch-OR predicted that microtubule coherence reaches the synapses via dendritic lamellar bodies (DLBs), however De Zeeuw et al. proved this impossible,[29] by showing that DLBs are located micrometers away from gap junctions.[30]

In January 2014, Hameroff and Penrose claimed that the discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules by Anirban Bandyopadhyay of the National Institute for Materials Science in Japan in March 2013[31] corroborates the Orch-OR theory.[15][32]

Although these theories are stated in a scientific framework, it is difficult to separate them from the personal opinions of the scientist. The opinions are often based on intuition or subjective ideas about the nature of consciousness."

So it looks like a dead end.

Well certainly a lot of that technical scientific stuff is over my head. I do know that Wikipedia has been criticized for allowing skeptic-types too much influence in many articles (Guerilla Skeptics on Wikipedia).

Bottom line for me is that from the Advaita Vedanta (non-dual Hinduism) philosophy I subscribe to, Consciousness is not physical and incarnates a physical brain. Neuronal activity does not create consciousness. It would make sense to me that by processes not yet understood by science (perhaps something like or related to Orch-Or) thought actually occurs at a level above the physical and the physical activity is then a consequence of that. I am going to speculate that through what looks like mysterious quantum behavior to us, higher plane causation in the physical is occurring. Physicist Amit Goswami calls this downward causation (from the subtle planes to the denser planes).

 

[exchemist]

To be honest, my understanding of all this stuff is pretty limited - I’m neither a mathematician nor a physicist. The OP just happened to chime with what I’ve been reading about the history and roots of Quantum Theory - I’m about halfway through The Quantum Astrologer’s Handbook, by Michael Brooks.

The OP, and myself, may be guilty of a fair amount of magical thinking. But so, it seems to me, are those physicists and astronomers working at the boundaries of knowledge and understanding.

Did you finish Carlo Rovelli’s latest book yet btw?

Not quite. I'm half expecting some hideous leap into incomprehensibility in the last chapter - which is what happened with Hawking's Brief History of Time, though Rovelli has been a model of clarity throughout, so far. I'm taking it slowly, because what he has to say involves some radical re-jigging of assumptions. So it's best to let each segment soak in a bit before trying to get on to the next.

I'm just getting my head round the relational interpretation of entanglement at the moment, having got used to the idea that the wave function of a system is only valid for a particular informational viewpoint - rather as relativity makes measurements of time and space dependent on a frame of reference. So for instance the wave function for Schrödinger's cat will be different for an observer (or other interacting system) inside the box from what it is outside. Outside you have superposition of states. Inside, you don't. Nobody suggested this at university, 40 years ago , but it makes obvious sense.

But it does mean there is no one wave function for a system, even though the wave function is more fundamental than the physical properties of the system, which are only manifested when the wave function "collapses" in an interaction. Which is all a bit disconcerting.

 

[exchemist]

Well certainly a lot of that technical scientific stuff is over my head. I do know that Wikipedia has been criticized for allowing skeptic-types too much influence in many articles (Guerilla Skeptics on Wikipedia).

Bottom line for me is that from the Advaita Vedanta (non-dual Hinduism) philosophy I subscribe to, Consciousness is not physical and incarnates a physical brain. Neuronal activity does not create consciousness. It would make sense to me that by processes not yet understood by science (perhaps something like or related to Orch-Or) thought actually occurs at a level above the physical and the physical activity is then a consequence of that. I am going to speculate that through what looks like mysterious quantum behavior to us, higher plane causation in the physical is occurring. Physicist Amit Goswami calls this downward causation (from the subtle planes to the denser planes).

That Wiki article I quoted is merely reciting the experimental findings of several teams of researchers. They found what they found - or rather didn't find what was predicted. So that's matter of fact, not opinion or bias.

Thanks for the link to "Guerilla Sceptics". I was much amused by the description of the people who have blown the whistle on this initiative:

"These brave whistleblowersfrequently accuse GSoW of devising an organized effort to prevent fringe lunacy from permeating Wikipedia thereby bolstering the scientific quality and skeptical tone of the articles. This, of course, cannot stand, and so resistance needs to be mounted."

 

[RestlessSoul]

Not quite. I'm half expecting some hideous leap into incomprehensibility in the last chapter - which is what happened with Hawking's Brief History of Time, though Rovelli has been a model of clarity throughout, so far. I'm taking it slowly, because what he has to say involves some radical re-jigging of assumptions. So it's best to let each segment soak in a bit before trying to get on to the next.

I'm just getting my head round the relational interpretation of entanglement at the moment, having got used to the idea that the wave function of a system is only valid for a particular informational viewpoint - rather as relativity makes measurements of time and space dependent on a frame of reference. So for instance the wave function for Schrödinger's cat will be different for an observer (or other interacting system) inside the box from what it is outside. Outside you have superposition of states. Inside, you don't. Nobody suggested this at university, 40 years ago , but it makes obvious sense.

But it does mean there is no one wave function for a system, even though the wave function is more fundamental than the physical properties of the system, which are only manifested when the wave function "collapses" in an interaction. Which is all a bit disconcerting.

Ha, yeah. I’ve never managed to finish A Brief History of Time - not yet anyway - and I’ve had the book for over 20 years. Whether Rovelli is Hawking’s equal intellectually, I honestly couldn’t say; but as a writer, he’s way more accessible.

Wave and phase are abstractions aren’t they? Abstractions which work and which stand up to mathematical interrogation; but at the sub atomic level, wave is a metaphor for the way particles behave. And they appear to behave differently when they are being observed, which is the real head spinner.

 

[George-ananda]

That Wiki article I quoted is merely reciting the experimental findings of several teams of researchers. They found what they found - or rather didn't find what was predicted. So that's matter of fact, not opinion or bias.

Thanks for the link to "Guerilla Sceptics". I was much amused by the description of the people who have blown the whistle on this initiative:

"These brave whistleblowersfrequently accuse GSoW of devising an organized effort to prevent fringe lunacy from permeating Wikipedia thereby bolstering the scientific quality and skeptical tone of the articles. This, of course, cannot stand, and so resistance needs to be mounted."

Ahh, I suspected what side you were on in all this. I'm pretty sure we've talked before.

Well another bottom line for me is my study of things so-called paranormal which has convinced me with real-world events that scientific understanding has miles to go. Consciousness and intelligence I now believe can exist without a physical brain. And there are scientific explanations for all this too but they will involve concepts not yet accepted by science. I believe eastern (Vedic) and western (Theosophical, Spiritualist, etc.) discuss the super-physical planes of reality and their part in our existence. Humans are more than physical matter is their position. In fact the physical body is just the clunky overcoat of the real 'us'.

Now I am fine with science moving slowly and have no problem with its neutrality to the stuff I am discussing, but not being a subscriber to 'Scientism' I learn also from other wisdom traditions including insights from those claiming psychic/clairvoyant insight into the nature of reality (this part is not accepted by mainstream science).

 

[exchemist]

Ha, yeah. I’ve never managed to finish A Brief History of Time - not yet anyway - and I’ve had the book for over 20 years. Whether Rovelli is Hawking’s equal intellectually, I honestly couldn’t say; but as a writer, he’s way more accessible.

Wave and phase are abstractions aren’t they? Abstractions which work and which stand up to mathematical interrogation; but at the sub atomic level, wave is a metaphor for the way particles behave. And they appear to behave differently when they are being observed, which is the real head spinner.

But it's not that they behave differently when they are observed, of that I am 100% confident. Properties manifest themselves when the system interacts with something. That something may be a conscious observer, or it may be a passing molecule.

I suggest nobody can seriously think a QM system behaves differently when the experimenter goes off to get a cup of coffee. What would be supposed to happen if the experiment is "observed" by the laboratory cat? Or a passing wasp?

The "observer" in QM is no more than the "observer" in relativity. An entity, in a particular frame of reference or informational environment, that interacts with the phenomenon in question.

 

[exchemist]

Ahh, I suspected what side you were on in all this. I'm pretty sure we've talked before.

Well another bottom line for me is my study of things so-called paranormal which has convinced me with real-world events that scientific understanding has miles to go. Consciousness and intelligence I now believe can exist without a physical brain. And there are scientific explanations for all this too but they will involve concepts not yet accepted by science. I believe eastern (Vedic) and western (Theosophical, Spiritualist, etc.) discuss the super-physical planes of reality and their part in our existence. Humans are more than physical matter is their position. In fact the physical body is just the clunky overcoat of the real 'us'.

Now I am fine with science moving slowly and have no problem with its neutrality to the stuff I am discussing, but not being a subscriber to 'Scientism' I learn also from other wisdom traditions including insights from those claiming psychic/clairvoyant insight into the nature of reality (this part is not accepted by mainstream science).

I have a science background. The name is a clue.

In science, scepticism is a virtue. And one cardinal rule is: you don't make s*** up.

I am more than happy to concede that there is far more to human experience than natural science - I also have a Catholic background, too. But one thing I have little time for is muddling up science with things are not science. That is a route to bad science - and usually bad religion.

 

[RestlessSoul]

But it's not that they behave differently when they are observed, of that I am 100% confident. Properties manifest themselves when the system interacts with something. That something may be a conscious observer, or it may be a passing molecule.

I suggest nobody can seriously think a QM system behaves differently when the experimenter goes off to get a cup of coffee. What would be supposed to happen if the experiment is "observed" by the laboratory cat? Or a passing wasp?

The "observer" in QM is no more than the "observer" in relativity. An entity, in a particular frame of reference or informational environment, that interacts with the phenomenon in question.

Okay then. Though I think the jury may still be out on this noumenon and phenomenon thing; both scientifically and philosophically.

But let’s say that at a the sub atomic level, particles appear to behave differently when they are being observed. And that a photon, for example, doesn’t apparently exist at all until it is measured.

Isn’t this what is meant by the ‘collapse’ of wave function? The collapse is from a position of infinite possibility into a defined state?

 

[George-ananda]

I have a science background. The name is a clue.

In science, scepticism is a virtue. And one cardinal rule is: you don't make s*** up.

I am more than happy to concede that there is far more to human experience than natural science - I also have a Catholic background, too. But one thing I have little time for is muddling up science with things are not science. That is a route to bad science - and usually bad religion.

Actually we agree on all that.

I think we probably both would also agree that there is a place in science for new and revolutionary theories.

 

[JoshuaTree]

There seems to be a link between the "external world" of perception and the internal world of dreams. The reason is unclear. It appears that the brain can become entangled with its environment and when perception is turned inwardly into the world of dreams that link is not severed. This explains why the events in a dream can affect the events in the "external world". For example, when you feel a force in your dream it can be felt by your sleeping body.

So the subconscious feeds on conscious tangled connections, which is why sensory deprivation is so tormenting, the subconscious is starved, the conscious is consumed, and identity is lost?