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There's Not An Iota Of Evidence The Apostles Existed

SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I bristle when I hear Christians say, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith in Jesus." It has become such a cliche like the other one, "There's more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" and my favorite--"Jesus Christ is the most well-attested figure in history." Do these people read anything beside the Bible?

I watched a debate between Sean MacDowell and Paulogia the other day. Paulogia is a former Christian who saw the light and left Christianity. He now runs a popular skeptic website on YouTube. Sean, son of infamous apologist, Josh MacDowell wrote a book on the fate of the apostles which is the go-to source in the Christian community to prove the apostles all were martyred. I was floored when MacDowell said and this is a quote at 17:31 of the video below:

MacDowell: "For my case it doesn't even matter that any of them died actually as martyrs. I had this conversation with William lane Craig and he said, 'You don't have to prove any of them died as martyrs'.


Huh?
1j2kh57pkm9sl.png

The question is "Did the apostles die as martyrs" and MacDowell and Craig are saying they don't have to prove the apostles died as martyrs--all they have to do is demonstrate that it's plausible that the apostles could have died as martyrs given the fact that they were apostles of Jesus and believed in him. Did we just warp to another universe where up is down and black is white?????????

Back to reality. Let's start with this:

There not an iota of evidence in the historical record for the apostles even existing.

Nine of them are not even mentioned by name in the Bible post-gospels. Not a single historian mentions them.

Justine Martyr doesn't even mention the nine (excluding Peter, John, and James). For all intents and purposes the apostles were never real--just figments of the gospel writers' imaginations.

And yet here's MacDowell writing a book making a case they died as martyrs for their faith but then saying, "I don't have to prove they died as martyrs for their faith."

Does 2 + 2 equal 22 in the world of Christianity?
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
SeekingAllTruth said:
I bristle when I hear Christians say, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith in Jesus." It has become such a cliche like the other one, "There's more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" and my favorite--"Jesus Christ is the most well-attested figure in history." Do these people read anything beside the Bible?

I watched a debate between Sean MacDowell and Paulogia the other day. Paulogia is a former Christian who saw the light and left Christianity. He now runs a popular skeptic website on YouTube. Sean, son of infamous apologist, Josh MacDowell wrote a book on the fate of the apostles which is the go-to source in the Christian community to prove the apostles all were martyred. I was floored when MacDowell said and this is a quote at 17:31 of the video below:

MacDowell: "For my case it doesn't even matter that any of them died actually as martyrs. I had this conversation with William lane Craig and he said, 'You don't have to prove any of them died as martyrs'.


Huh?
1j2kh57pkm9sl.png

The question is "Did the apostles die as martyrs" and MacDowell and Craig are saying they don't have to prove the apostles died as martyrs--all they have to do is demonstrate that it's plausible that the apostles could have died as martyrs given the fact that they were apostles of Jesus and believed in him. Did we just warp to another universe where up is down and black is white?????????

Back to reality. Let's start with this:

There not an iota of evidence in the historical record for the apostles even existing.

Nine of them are not even mentioned by name in the Bible post-gospels. Not a single historian mentions them.

Justine Martyr doesn't even mention the nine (excluding Peter, John, and James). For all intents and purposes the apostles were never real--just figments of the gospel writers' imaginations.

And yet here's MacDowell writing a book making a case they died as martyrs for their faith but then saying, "I don't have to prove they died as martyrs for their faith."

Does 2 + 2 equal 22 in the world of Christianity?
Click to expand...
Isn`t it the message that is most important within religious practice and not who said what?
 
Kelly of the Phoenix

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The apostles are only 12 because the authors referenced the 12 tribes, which likely weren’t actually 12 either. There are only 4 gospels in the canon because of similar numerology nonsense. It struck me that if there were 12, why not 12 gospels? Why ignore most of them?
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Rival said:
They were nobodies in their time. Who would write about some nobody heretics the empire killed?
Click to expand...

These were the most important men in the known world after jesus supposedly ascended. Jesus entrusted them to carry the gospel message to the entire world. But not a single word was written about them??????? It's like Christianity's foundation is less stable than desert sand blowing in the wind.
 
Spirit of Light

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
SeekingAllTruth said:
Not when Christians are trying to prove Jesus rose based on a foundation-less statement like "The fact all the apostles were willing to die for their faith in Jesus is proof Jesus rose."
Click to expand...
Is it right to pick one tiny bit of info from the christians, and then base all of that little info to say, there was no prophets or apostles? I do agree it is long since i did read the bible, but i would think the bible do contain the answer needed to understand the message it was made to give followers of Jesus, remember it was taught oraly in the beginning, not as a scripture.
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Kelly of the Phoenix said:
The apostles are only 12 because the authors referenced the 12 tribes, which likely weren’t actually 12 either. There are only 4 gospels in the canon because of similar numerology nonsense. It struck me that if there were 12, why not 12 gospels? Why ignore most of them?
Click to expand...
Exactly right.
12 can be found in 187 places in God's word. Revelation alone has 22 occurrences of the number. Jacob had 12 sons, Ishmael had 12 sons. Christians never wonder about this stuff.
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Conscious thoughts said:
Is it right to pick one tiny bit of info from the christians, and then base all of that little info to say, there was no prophets or apostles? I do agree it is long since i did read the bible, but i would think the bible do contain the answer needed to understand the message it was made to give followers of Jesus, remember it was taught oraly in the beginning, not as a scripture.
Click to expand...
I can only say again apologists are trying to pass off conjecture and assumptions as facts. Don't you think that dishonest of them? Would Jesus have approved of such deceit?
 
J

John1.12

Free gift
SeekingAllTruth said:
I bristle when I hear Christians say, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith in Jesus." It has become such a cliche like the other one, "There's more evidence for Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar" and my favorite--"Jesus Christ is the most well-attested figure in history." Do these people read anything beside the Bible?

I watched a debate between Sean MacDowell and Paulogia the other day. Paulogia is a former Christian who saw the light and left Christianity. He now runs a popular skeptic website on YouTube. Sean, son of infamous apologist, Josh MacDowell wrote a book on the fate of the apostles which is the go-to source in the Christian community to prove the apostles all were martyred. I was floored when MacDowell said and this is a quote at 17:31 of the video below:

MacDowell: "For my case it doesn't even matter that any of them died actually as martyrs. I had this conversation with William lane Craig and he said, 'You don't have to prove any of them died as martyrs'.


Huh?
1j2kh57pkm9sl.png

The question is "Did the apostles die as martyrs" and MacDowell and Craig are saying they don't have to prove the apostles died as martyrs--all they have to do is demonstrate that it's plausible that the apostles could have died as martyrs given the fact that they were apostles of Jesus and believed in him. Did we just warp to another universe where up is down and black is white?????????

Back to reality. Let's start with this:

There not an iota of evidence in the historical record for the apostles even existing.

Nine of them are not even mentioned by name in the Bible post-gospels. Not a single historian mentions them.

Justine Martyr doesn't even mention the nine (excluding Peter, John, and James). For all intents and purposes the apostles were never real--just figments of the gospel writers' imaginations.

And yet here's MacDowell writing a book making a case they died as martyrs for their faith but then saying, "I don't have to prove they died as martyrs for their faith."

Does 2 + 2 equal 22 in the world of Christianity?
Click to expand...
If you believe the bible ,this is no problem.
 
SeekingAllTruth

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Augustus said:
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you think historians don't consider oral traditions to be evidence.

This is compounded by the fact you also don't seem to understand what evidence is.

Or hearsay for that matter... ;)
Click to expand...

It's easy to throw charges around. That's all Christians do when they have no evidence to back up their claims. Why don't you prove I'm wrong instead. Quote some historians who say oral traditions are evidence.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
SeekingAllTruth said:
It's easy to throw charges around. That's all Christians do when they have no evidence to back up their claims. Why don't you prove I'm wrong instead. Quote some historians who say oral traditions are evidence.
Click to expand...

It's not about "some historians", but entire fields of critical historical scholarship that extensively utilise oral tradition that is later written down.

Just about any (secular, academic) historian who writes on early Islam or Viking culture or Aztec culture relies, to some degree, on oral tradition for example.

If you want an example of how scholars utilise oral traditions, and often disagree on them:

Harald Fairhair - Wikipedia

If you are going to start an "OMG look how stupid and irrational these dumb Christians are" thread, it's best to understand elementary aspects of the discipline in question, or you may look a bit silly ;)
 
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