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Why are people afraid of creationism?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there doesn't seem to be room for creationism anywhere according to some atheists and even some hypocritical believers.

The place for creationism is in the homes and gathering places of those believing it, and if you want to promote the idea, in various print and broadcast media, not the schools, nor in the government via law, policy, or religious monuments. You have access to all other means of getting your message out and all willing audiences. That's plenty of room for creationism. But you apparently want more, and the only thing more there is is to use the state to promote your beliefs. That's not permitted in a secular government.

If it's not enough, then it's because the belief isn't appealing enough. These days, it's getting harder and harder to sell that idea to the educated citizens of Western democracies, especially given the advent of the Internet, which has leveled off the playing field in the market of ideas. The organized religions have to compete with the skeptics now, people who didn't have an audible voice in that conversation before this more democratic venue.

It's interesting that you define non-creationist believers as hypocrites.

What is the harm in it being said that God created everything?

If you say it to a mind that hasn't learn to think critically, then you are likely to be believed. If it interferes with a proper liberal education, then there's the harm. It can begin with creationism in Sunday school and end up with a disrespect for education.

Here's a kindred spirit for you:
  • "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them." - Martin Luther
That's not an enlightenment value.

it is nothing but one of the many tactics used to attempt to annihilate religion, belief, and righteousness.

It's interesting that so many believers see the promotion of their beliefs as appropriate, not an attempt to 'annihilate' atheism, which of course, is part of the agenda of any proselytizing religion, the rest being to 'annihilate' other religions. That's what the marketplace of ideas is - a competition of sorts.

And sorry, but religious doesn't equate to righteous. That's a word some religious people use to call themselves and their beliefs morally superior and the outgroup morally inferior. I consider the values of rational ethics of secular humanism to be the most evolved moral code available. Using your language, that is righteousness to me, not being religious.

I'm not afraid of the story about kids being brought by storks. That isn't a theory though, it is a fable.

The creationists have no more evidence than the storkists.

What elevates creationism above a fable to you if not evidence - that lots of other people believe it as well? That's still a fable to me.

My religious views aren't shaken.... My views on science are.

Why are you so afraid of evolution?

And you would decide what is the best understanding. And at the same time, I'm sure, claim tolerance.

We each decide for ourselves what the best understanding is. Rational skeptics reject faith-based beliefs and believe that those who hold them have made a logical error circumventing reason and evidence. That's not intolerance. That's dissent.

So far, you have characterized those who disagree with you as afraid, wanting to annihilate religion, being less than righteous, and being intolerant.

Are you aware that when you start discussions like this one, and others disagree with you, you are causing others to introduce dissenting opinions in a public forum visible to many? For that to be effective for you, you need to show that your ideas are better than the arguments against them. That is the level playing field to which I referred earlier when discussing the advent of the Internet and its impact on the religion-no religion debate, which didn't exist before then. Fifty years ago, the skeptics had no voice. Religious promotion had been going on unopposed in pulpits and later televangelism for millennia with no rebuttal from skeptics, who were shamed and defamed in these pulpits and TV stations without contradiction.

That's all changed now, and it hasn't been good for religious belief. What it's done is make atheism and irreligiosity more socially acceptable. The churches still like to tell the world how horrible atheists are and how much they are to be disesteemed, but they can see us now. At last, we are not characterized only by enemies. We can show whomever was previously never exposed to an atheist and could be convinced that unbelievers are angry, immoral sinners in open rebellion against a good god that we are actually reasonable and decent people. It makes this path less scary, and creationism less sellable.
 

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Considering this, it is hard to see why atheist make such a big deal about evolution contradicting the Bible.

I would correct you in this by switching "atheists" with "some atheists." I don't really think too much about the ways evolution, or any science really, contradicts the bible, and I am an atheist.

I think what some atheists might have a problem with is when those who make claims about the nature of reality try to actively fight against our best understanding of reality through science, not because it has better evidence that causes us to rethink what we thought we understood, but because their holy book that's more than a thousand years old says something different. That's fine for personal beliefs, but to extend that over everyone else... Ehh...

That might be just a reaction to the young earth creationist ideas but even a theist who does not believe earth creationism can be attacked by atheists over this issue.

Some atheists, yes. I would suspect those atheists are probably anti-theists, more specifically. Most atheists tend to not care too much about old earth creationism unless it goes against common scientific understanding without any evidence.

Keep in mind, though, that this "attacking" goes both ways. I have experienced plenty of this myself, as an atheist.

It is as if they have decided that the Bible is a fiction because of evolution when those who believe the Bible do not think so.

If people decide the bible is fiction because of evolution and biology, that's a possibility. It's not how I came to that conclusion, as I did through history, morality, and logic. Everyone comes to conclusions through many different ways.

Would it be so bad if people came to the conclusion that the bible was fiction through evolution, though? Why, or why not? Plenty of people's faith has been strengthened by evolution too, you know.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Shakeel was not blaming atheists, just pointing out the fact that according to some atheists there is no room for creationism (and not the young earth creationist type of creationism)

Since science does not know if God created everything or not, believing that God created everything is not against basic sciences.


So blaming some atheists then... OK



Science does not care if god did it, what science cares about is evidence and since you nor anyone else has provided any falsifiable evidence of a god dun it then as i stated in the very first sentence of my first post on this thread, "You are just as welcome to your beliefs as anyone else."


And yes, blind belief without evidence to back it does go against basic science

I know if over 30 hypothesis of how the universe was formed, each one must be based on physical evidence or mathematical proof before being accepted as a possibility. There are no hypothesis that god did it.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Considering this, it is hard to see why atheist make such a big deal about evolution contradicting the Bible

They don't. What becomes a big deal is is when some hard line religionists say, the bible says so it is so and screw all the evidence because observation and measurement is worth squat next to bronze age mythology.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
It also seems to be the case that anything that contradicts the science is also automatically dismissed as false by those who get their truths from science.
The difference is that science is a structured process by which things are understood while religious beliefs are predefined conclusions. Scientific conclusions can be entirely consistent with (or at least irrelevant to) any given religious belief. If you don't like a scientific conclusion though, you need a scientific justification to contradict it.

That isn't to say that everyone who claims to be speaking for science is right, honest or smart but then that is true of religion too. That is not a valid reason to dismiss either out-of-hand.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Definition of creationism:

"creationism, the belief that the universe and the various forms of life were created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo)."
creationism | Definitions, History, & Facts

[kind of dubious that the article goes on to say, "It is a response primarily to modern evolutionary theory," since the idea of creationism was definitely there before the evolution theory.]

So we're not talking about biblical view to creationism alone.

I, as a Muslim, believe in science (in the sense that I acknowledge what has been achieved and found by it and that it is useful to study) and I don't deny much of the evolutionary theory, nor do I confirm it. I don't think it's important. The main thing about it that Muslims object to is the creation of man and that he supposedly evolved from the ancestors of monkeys. So there's plenty of room for science.

But there doesn't seem to be room for creationism anywhere according to some atheists and even some hypocritical believers.

What is the harm in it being said that God created everything? The children are going to hear it anyway.

In my opinion it is nothing but one of the many tactics used to attempt to annihilate religion, belief, and righteousness.
I don’t think atheist are afraid of creationism , its seems to be a case of “creationism is out of fashion and I like to be an atheist because that makes me feels smart and open minded.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
You should fear creationism because it breads on ignorance and lies.
Unfortunately some one who can believe one set of lies, is easily persuaded to believe other lies.
They soon fail to be able to distinguish between truth and lies.
And very soon stop thinking for themselves.
They become fodder for every false leader and conspiracy theory circulation among their peers.
They damage education and despise the educated.
They are indeed to be feared.
They are a danger to mankind and the world.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
, its seems to be a case of “creationism is out of fashion and I like to be an atheist because that makes me feels smart and open minded.

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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'm not afraid of the story about kids being brought by storks. That isn't a theory though, it is a fable. Would you rather they teach in kindergarten the details of sexual acts and intimacy?

Are you implying that creationists are like little kids unable to understand the real thing? Or unready for it? And what makes you think that things like Adam and Eve, or Jonah living in a big fish, are not fables? If they exchanged those stories with Pinocchio, telling you when you were a kid that Pinocchio is the real sacred thing, you would now probably worship the blue fairy instead of whatever.

Considering that the claims of creationism (of the Flinstonian type) have the same evidence of the blue fairy, it is not clear why you treat them differently. Why you call one fable, and the other not.

And who talked about Kindergarten? Let's say high school: would you rather teach things like Adam and Eve / storks or Woman's evolution / sex and embryology?

Ciao

- viole
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Why are people afraid of creationism?

One reason is that belief in nonsense of one kind leads to other nonsensical beliefs. I am willing to wager that the vast majority of QANON believers also believe in Adam & Eve. I am willing to wager that practically no atheists follow QANON.


What is the harm in it being said that God created everything? The children are going to hear it anyway.
The harm? See above.

Yes, the children are going to hear it from their parents, relatives and peers. That's why children of Sunnis are Sunni and children of Shiites are Shiite. That is no reason to perpetuate religious myths in schools.


But there doesn't seem to be room for creationism anywhere according to some atheists

There is plenty of room in churches and mosques. There is plenty of room in the homes. Is that not enough room for you? Do you really want your Muslim children taught the Christian version of Creationism? Which version of Creationism would you want your children to be taught? Young Earth, Old Earth, How Old? Do you want your children to be taught that a god flooded the entire earth and then altered geography to make it look like there was no flood? Do you want your children to be taught that a god messed with the laws of physics to make radiometric dating wrong?

In my opinion it is nothing but one of the many tactics used to attempt to annihilate religion, belief, and righteousness.

Why do you think righteousness has anything to do with religion? Was it righteous for the Christian Crusaders to invade Muslim Holy lands? Was it righteous for Christians to burn tens of thousands of women at the stake because they were accused of being witches? Was it righteous for Sunnis and Shiites to kill one another after the fall of Saddam Hussein? Is it righteous to bury women up to the necks and stone them to death? Was it righteous for Saudi Arabia to forbid women to drive cars? I could go on and on.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Definition of creationism:

"creationism, the belief that the universe and the various forms of life were created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo)."
creationism | Definitions, History, & Facts

[kind of dubious that the article goes on to say, "It is a response primarily to modern evolutionary theory," since the idea of creationism was definitely there before the evolution theory.]

So we're not talking about biblical view to creationism alone.

I, as a Muslim, believe in science (in the sense that I acknowledge what has been achieved and found by it and that it is useful to study) and I don't deny much of the evolutionary theory, nor do I confirm it. I don't think it's important. The main thing about it that Muslims object to is the creation of man and that he supposedly evolved from the ancestors of monkeys. So there's plenty of room for science.

But there doesn't seem to be room for creationism anywhere according to some atheists and even some hypocritical believers.

What is the harm in it being said that God created everything? The children are going to hear it anyway.

In my opinion it is nothing but one of the many tactics used to attempt to annihilate religion, belief, and righteousness.
Just to clarify, we didn't evolve from monkeys :)

And im not sure that atheists are afraid of the idea of creationism as much as it is about knowledge and what is true and what is not true. And as it is now, everything points towards us having a common ancestor with the other great apes.

The issue that a lot of creationists seem to forget when they promote the idea as it being equally as good as evolution, is that it is based on nothing tangible, except scriptures. Which means that if we should treat creationism seriously and on same terms as evolution theory, there is no argument to be made against, anyone claiming origin theories left, right and centre. I could claim that we were created by aliens, someone else that we were created by a magical realm, and you wouldn't be able to make a case against why that would be more wrong, compared to God did it.

And even if it might sound stupid or unserious to you, it is basically how it is. If there is no standard for evidences in regards to what should be valid and not, then anything goes.

If a person have another theory, such as God made us, that is not an issue, but until some sort of convincing evidence is provided its nothing but a claim. Evolution theory is probably the most tested scientific theory know to humans, and even though there are debates within this community, it is not in regards to whether evolution is true or not, but rather in the details of it, so to speak.

So nothing prevents anyone from coming up with a better explanation. But it need to more than old scriptures and people claiming things.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Since science does not know if God created everything or not, believing that God created everything is not against basic sciences.
If you mean a god popped the nascent universe into existence some 13 billion years ago, OK.

If you mean that anything in Genesis actually happened, then believing that God created everything is against basic sciences
Science knows that all of humanity did not derive from one male and one female human.
Science knows that the entire earth was not flooded 4000 years ago.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
How is it that science has to be 100% correct about everything?

It doesn't, obviously. But it is going to be very close to being correct on those topics that have been well tested. And that includes human evolution.

It's not really arbitrary limits, it's limits because of religious beliefs.

Those are not limits imposed by the subject matter itself. And, given that religious beliefs can be wrong (obvious considering the variety of such beliefs), an evidence based investigation should not be limited by any religious beliefs.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Shakeel was not blaming atheists, just pointing out the fact that according to some atheists there is no room for creationism (and not the young earth creationist type of creationism)

Since science does not know if God created everything or not, believing that God created everything is not against basic sciences.

But science *does* know that humans evolved from other apes. It *does* know that evolution is reality (although the mechanisms might still be subject to debate).

If your belief that God created everything is consistent with what the science has discovered, there is no issue. If it is, and the science is solid, then the problem is with the religious beliefs.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Definition of creationism:

"creationism, the belief that the universe and the various forms of life were created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo)."
creationism | Definitions, History, & Facts

[kind of dubious that the article goes on to say, "It is a response primarily to modern evolutionary theory," since the idea of creationism was definitely there before the evolution theory.]

So we're not talking about biblical view to creationism alone.

I, as a Muslim, believe in science (in the sense that I acknowledge what has been achieved and found by it and that it is useful to study) and I don't deny much of the evolutionary theory, nor do I confirm it. I don't think it's important. The main thing about it that Muslims object to is the creation of man and that he supposedly evolved from the ancestors of monkeys. So there's plenty of room for science.

But there doesn't seem to be room for creationism anywhere according to some atheists and even some hypocritical believers.

What is the harm in it being said that God created everything? The children are going to hear it anyway.

In my opinion it is nothing but one of the many tactics used to attempt to annihilate religion, belief, and righteousness.
We're not afraid of creationism. We dislike shoddy thinking, because we understand that anyone who refuses to accept the reality of one thing, can just as easily refuse to accept the reality of anything they don't like.

For example, that the last US election was "stolen." It wasn't. And evolution happened.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Not sure "afraid" is the right word.

Evolution happened. It's still happening.

It helps to understand what a scientific theory is. It's not a guess. It's framework of observations and facts supported by evidence.

I'm as afraid of creationism as I am of 2 plus 2 being 343.
But it's so scary. You ought to be afraid!
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
Which came first, the chicken or he egg? Genesis 1 is chicken first view, Genesis 2 is egg first view. Presenting both views back to back suggests to me the author didn't know which view was correct, only that God was responsible for creation however it happened. Science certainly can't answer the question as to which came first, but that is the point of the text I think.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Which came first, the chicken or he egg? Genesis 1 is chicken first view, Genesis 2 is egg first view. Presenting both views back to back suggests to me the author didn't know which view was correct, only that God was responsible for creation however it happened. Science certainly can't answer the question as to which came first, but that is the point of the text I think.
Actually, science has answered this question. Since chickens evolved from egg-laying animals, the egg must have preceded the bird.
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
Raising man from the dust of the earth might seem more in alignment with the science and evidence of the process of evolution but God being God could have just poofed that proof of creation into existence and science would never know, right?
 
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