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"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

John1.12

Free gift
Barry, I’ve personally corrected many of the things you claim here about what Katz, I, and other LDS Christians believe. There’s no good reason for you to keep repeating the same false statements.
Do you want me to post you from LDS .org about Jesus being Lucifers brother ?
 

John1.12

Free gift
Is it? Funny, but I didn't even mention either Joseph Smith or a Restoration. Aren't you getting just a bit ahead of yourself?

Now, if you believe that either Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy teaches the same doctrines Jesus Christ did, then you can argue that an apostasy never took place (even though Paul clearly believed it was beginning to take place even in his day). If you do believe that somewhere along the line, both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy began to adopt doctrine not taught by Jesus Christ, then you absolutely must acknowledge that an apostasy did, in fact, take place. Protestantism was a result of "protest" against certain Catholic doctrines and practices, and if your church is not a part of Restorationist Christianity, it's part of Protestant Christianity (even if you claim to be non-denominational). Those are the facts, and you simply can't have it both ways.
Christians do not believe that God is merely an exalted man who earned his position by good works (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321;
 

John1.12

Free gift
Is it? Funny, but I didn't even mention either Joseph Smith or a Restoration. Aren't you getting just a bit ahead of yourself?

Now, if you believe that either Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy teaches the same doctrines Jesus Christ did, then you can argue that an apostasy never took place (even though Paul clearly believed it was beginning to take place even in his day). If you do believe that somewhere along the line, both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy began to adopt doctrine not taught by Jesus Christ, then you absolutely must acknowledge that an apostasy did, in fact, take place. Protestantism was a result of "protest" against certain Catholic doctrines and practices, and if your church is not a part of Restorationist Christianity, it's part of Protestant Christianity (even if you claim to be non-denominational). Those are the facts, and you simply can't have it both ways.
Those who follow the Mormon faith also believe that they can attain heaven through works (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43; 2 Nephi 9:23–24; Alma 34:30–35; Articles of Faith, p.92). While they claim faith in Christ, they also rely on following the commandments of the Mormon Church (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p 188; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670) and practicing good works (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 11:37) in order to achieve salvation.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Those who follow the Mormon faith also believe that they can attain heaven through works (Doctrine and Covenants 58:42–43; 2 Nephi 9:23–24; Alma 34:30–35; Articles of Faith, p.92). While they claim faith in Christ, they also rely on following the commandments of the Mormon Church (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p 188; Mormon Doctrine, p. 670) and practicing good works (2 Nephi 25:23; Alma 11:37) in order to achieve salvation.
@Barry Johnson please do not take what i am about to ask as an attack of your Christian belief or you as a person.

My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?

Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
It is evident that there can be some variance between what people may claim and the factual truth.

Since God who inspired the holy Bible "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2), His inspired expressions on this subject are the most authoritative, we benefit by adjusting our views to harmonize with the Bible. If we are uncertain that the Bible is completely reliable, accurate and inspired then we should first seek to establish this.

A very good method for determining what God's view is on any subject is to search a Bible index and consider (in proper context) all the scriptures dealing with that particular subject.

Personally reading his word the bible in prayerful and sincere personal study will lead to accurate knowledge and the ability to confirm this matter for one's self.

A comprehensive Bible index search and cross-referencing regarding Jesus verifies his identity. It is as summarized by John:

"...the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)

Other scriptures reveal Jesus as God's heavenly son, the "master worker" through whom he created all other things, the ancient Word" of God through whom God spoke to his covenant people Israel, the "prince" of Israel through whom God led and protected his faithful people; the promised 'seed' which would through his life sacrifice repurchase imperfect humanity from Adamic sin, and the king of God's heavely kingdom which would vanquish corrupt human government, resurrect the dead and restore paradise and human perfection during the millenial reign. Colossians 1:15-17; John 17:5; Ephesians 1:9, 10; Matthew 1:23; 6:9, 10; Mathew 19:28; John 18:36; Daniel 2:44; 7: 14, 18; Revelation 14: 1-4; 5:9,10; 20:6; 21:2-4

"the Triumphant One (Excellency, Eminence" of Israel will not prove false" (1 Samuel 15:29) is a prophetic of Jesus the messiah and king of God's kingdom who was born in the lineage of king David. (Luke 1: 32, 33)

Any claims that actually contradict Bible prophecy or accounts inspired by God simply have no effect or bearing on the factual truth or on true worship. It is better not to pay attention to claims that are not in harmony with divinely inspired scripture but to verify the truth for one's self as dedication to God is personal.


Hence the advice to Titus was " ...paying no attention to ... fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth" (Titus 1: 14) , regardless of their origin. Rather, as Jesus own prayer to His heavely father regarding his disciples was: "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth" (John 17:17)

It seems you are thus correct in identifying the variance of claims that contradict to Bible truth because doing so promotes an "accurate knowledge" of God, and such is the 'knowledge that leads to everlasting life' (John 17:3)

P
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
It is evident that there can be some variance between what people may claim and the factual truth.

Since God who inspired the holy Bible "cannot lie" (Titus 1:2), His inspired expressions on this subject are the most authoritative, we benefit by adjusting our views to harmonize with the Bible. If we are uncertain that the Bible is completely reliable, accurate and inspired then we should first seek to establish this.

A very good method for determining what God's view is on any subject is to search a Bible index and consider (in proper context) all the scriptures dealing with that particular subject.

Personally reading his word the bible in prayerful and sincere personal study will lead to accurate knowledge and the ability to confirm this matter for one's self.

A comprehensive Bible index search and cross-referencing regarding Jesus verifies his identity. It is as summarized by John:

"...the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)

Other scriptures reveal Jesus as God's heavenly son, the "master worker" through whom he created all other things, the ancient Word" of God through whom God spoke to his covenant people Israel, the "prince" of Israel through whom God led and protected his faithful people; the promised 'seed' which would through his life sacrifice repurchase imperfect humanity from Adamic sin, and the king of God's heavely kingdom which would vanquish corrupt human government, resurrect the dead and restore paradise and human perfection during the millenial reign. Colossians 1:15-17; John 17:5; Ephesians 1:9, 10; Matthew 1:23; 6:9, 10; Mathew 19:28; John 18:36; Daniel 2:44; 7: 14, 18; Revelation 14: 1-4; 5:9,10; 20:6; 21:2-4

"the Triumphant One (Excellency, Eminence" of Israel will not prove false" (1 Samuel 15:29) is a prophetic of Jesus the messiah and king of God's kingdom who was born in the lineage of king David. (Luke 1: 32, 33)

Any claims that actually contradict Bible prophecy or accounts inspired by God simply have no effect or bearing on the factual truth or on true worship. It is better not to pay attention to claims that are not in harmony with divinely inspired scripture but to verify the truth for one's self as dedication to God is personal.


Hence the advice to Titus was " ...paying no attention to ... fables and commandments of men who turn themselves away from the truth" (Titus 1: 14) , regardless of their origin. Rather, as Jesus own prayer to His heavely father regarding his disciples was: "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth" (John 17:17)

It seems you are thus correct in identifying the variance of claims that contradict to Bible truth because doing so promotes an "accurate knowledge" of God, and such is the 'knowledge that leads to everlasting life' (John 17:3)

P
 

John1.12

Free gift
@Barry Johnson please do not take what i am about to ask as an attack of your Christian belief or you as a person.

My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?

Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?
My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?

Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?//
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?

Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?//
You just qouted back what i asked you about, without answering the question?
 

John1.12

Free gift
@Barry Johnson please do not take what i am about to ask as an attack of your Christian belief or you as a person.

My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?

Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?
//My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? //

If what I believed contradicted the bible, it would be a problem.

//Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?//

If someone believes something contrary to the Scriptures, it is Just that basically. Contrary to the Scriptures. If they believing something contrary to the bible as a believer who is saved ( maybe its on the timing of the rapture ,or OSAS , or some non essential things) Well this is one thing. I don't believe any differences will send a person to hell . I don't believe a Christian can lose salvation. But if an unsaved person believes something contrary to the Scriptures, something that means they don't appropriate salvation then this makes all the difference. Then if this teaching prevents others from seeing the truth and appropriating salvation then even worse. God will be the Judge of that .

//Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?//

This is kinda answered above . ( and I don't see you attacking me ,your responses are always cordial and respectful ) if a person is saved, and lets say one person decides that Saturday is the day he wants to worship God , or maybe he believes some doctrines differently then the bible actually covers this . People grow and understand at different speeds. All believers ( i believe) will never be lost . Getting saved to start with is the critical thing. Maturing in the faith is another matter. The Lord is long-suffering , patient and doesn't reject you when you stumble as a child of God . The point is to become a child of God to start with. I believe other teachings contrary to scripture lead people away from this ever happening to someone because they don't find the way to be saved . Its like when you want to direct your own kids to the correct choices. There lots of claims out there . But I believe God has only given one way , one choice .
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
//My question is: Is the way you believe in Jesus and Christianity in your view the only way anyone can believe? //

If what I believed contradicted the bible, it would be a problem.

//Every other way of being a Christian or holding other religious beliefs is wrong or evil?//

If someone believes something contrary to the Scriptures, it is Just that basically. Contrary to the Scriptures. If they believing something contrary to the bible as a believer who is saved ( maybe its on the timing of the rapture ,or OSAS , or some non essential things) Well this is one thing. I don't believe any differences will send a person to hell . I don't believe a Christian can lose salvation. But if an unsaved person believes something contrary to the Scriptures, something that means they don't appropriate salvation then this makes all the difference. Then if this teaching prevents others from seeing the truth and appropriating salvation then even worse. God will be the Judge of that .

//Can it be that others who follow Christ differently actually has it right?//

This is kinda answered above . ( and I don't see you attacking me ,your responses are always cordial and respectful ) if a person is saved, and lets say one person decides that Saturday is the day he wants to worship God , or maybe he believes some doctrines differently then the bible actually covers this . People grow and understand at different speeds. All believers ( i believe) will never be lost . Getting saved to start with is the critical thing. Maturing in the faith is another matter. The Lord is long-suffering , patient and doesn't reject you when you stumble as a child of God . The point is to become a child of God to start with. I believe other teachings contrary to scripture lead people away from this ever happening to someone because they don't find the way to be saved . Its like when you want to direct your own kids to the correct choices. There lots of claims out there . But I believe God has only given one way , one choice .
Thank you for your reply @Barry Johnson :) Now i have a more clear way of understanding your previous answers both in this thread and in other threads i seen you write :)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
When I read my spiritual scriptures I only read the words of my Master.
Rarely do I read booklets or books written by disciples about their special experiences with the Master.

I never stop being amazed at how easily Christians can accept the authority of texts written by mostly early Christians whose words have very little to do with the teachings of Jesus. It makes me feel they are very gullible.

So you believe your "hypothetical" Q or/and Q-lite was the "words of your master"? Can you prove that? Do you have anything like Paleographic dating, or anything to date it, and make it words of your master?

Peace.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I am however convinced that the reconstructed text of Q-lite (or something very like it), are the only genuine words of Master Jesus/Yahshua, yes.

How are you convinced? With what standard? After all, there is nothing called Q-lite which is birds invention. Same questions still stands.

Whats the dating to it? How do you date it? How do you determine authorship? What is the method?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Gal 1 . Is AFTER the cross . Paul is saying if an Angel gives new revelation TODAY that's contrary to his message its false.
Jesus is my Lord, not Paul. Jesus never said that after he left a guy, who he never taught, would come along with a new Gospel and that his letters would be converted into "the Word of God" and made equal to Jesus!

It was Peter and Paul who compromised the original Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven. They did not remain true to the Gospel that Jesus taught, the one that got his killed.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I am convinced by the large differences in form and content which point to a different 'Sitz im Leben' of the two types of texts.
People who think in practical spirituality such as tantrics, mystics etc. have a different way of thinking about spirituality than religious people who are more inclined to depend on earlier religious authorities but have no deeper understanding of spiritual practise and its philosophy.

You can see this difference between these two tiers on this forum as well although not always as clearly.
Some people think spirituality is universal but most people think that religions come more or less straight from God and have nothing to do with (universal) spiritual philosophy.

So the Q-lite text sits (rather edited but still reconstructable) in the New Testament as a diamond in a pile of broken pieces of glass. The glass pieces try very poorly to imitate and interact with the diamond, but are easily distinguishable as something quite different.

I'm not interested in dating Q-lite, why should I, it is obviously older than the surrounding text.
There is nothing like Q either and yet even the Catholic Church admits that is was used by the authors of gLuke and gMatthew and most theologians acknowledge it.
The differences between Q and Q-lite are not so interesting, they only depend on whether you allow for some use of gMatthew by one of the authors of gLuke or not.
It may sound odd, but I'm also not interested in the authorship. It was obviously not written by the people who edited it into their gospel stories and was created by someone who is compatible with the pre-Christian Jesus.

Differences dont prove that they are Jesus's actual words.

Is there any evidence at all? Is there even a philosophical argument? You have a lot of words but no evidence whatsoever. Just belief statements. "I believe this is so it must be true" is not any valid.

Dont eternally try to explain what Q and Q-lite is. It is very very well known, and Q-lite is not even an established source but Birds source. You are not even aware of who developed it but you have faith in it and you keep sharing the same old article every single time.

But what you dont understand is, Q, it just a common source. It does not mean it is dated the 20 or 30 years earlier, it does not mean it is "original", it does not mean it was even text. It could very well be a form.

So is there any evidence at all??
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
@Barry Johnson , your entire anti-Mormon stance is based on inaccurate information (either flat out lies or half-truths) and hypocritical duel standards. You and I have already talked about many of these claims, I've shared with you correct information, and been blatantly ignored again and again. Frankly, I don't see any benefit in spending my time explaining things again, and watching you ignore them again.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Differences dont prove that they are Jesus's actual words.

Is there any evidence at all? Is there even a philosophical argument? You have a lot of words but no evidence whatsoever. Just belief statements. "I believe this is so it must be true" is not any valid.

Dont eternally try to explain what Q and Q-lite is. It is very very well known, and Q-lite is not even an established source but Birds source. You are not even aware of who developed it but you have faith in it and you keep sharing the same old article every single time.

But what you dont understand is, Q, it just a common source. It does not mean it is dated the 20 or 30 years earlier, it does not mean it is "original", it does not mean it was even text. It could very well be a form.
You sound like a fundamentalist who are also never satisfied with valid arguments but keep shouting for evidence. ;)
For me it is evidence enough. If you have a better idea, please come with it.
It's very easy to keep laying turds on other people's ideas.
Don't ask if you're not interested in any answers.

I have found over the years that some of the least tolerant folks are the ones that preach tolerance, because it's tolerance my way, and they jump at any other way than their own. True tolerance, in my view, respects differences, and choices.
I think you are trying to change the subject, it has nothing to do with tolerance or intolerance nor with preaching or non-preaching. But I understand that those subjects are very important to you. ;)
 
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