"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

[John1.12]

Paul was warning of an imminent "apostasia" or "falling away" from the truth. He was, you might say, fixated on this subject. You mentioned Galatians 1:6. Here are some more of his warnings:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

You have NOT answered my question. What are the "essentials" of Christianity?

Ok , whats happened here is a ' scatter gun ' approach to those verses ..Each verse is within a particular book / letter written with a particular context in mind . There's literally too much here out of context to deal with?

 

[John1.12]

And what if He did? If He chose to make a post-resurrection appearance to people in other parts of the world, how would that change the Christian message? If He believed that people outside the Holy Land were also entitled to hear His message, does that invalidate His life as it is recounted in the Bible?

My thoughts are that you have missed the whole point of His message. He did not seek to have us try to discredit one another. He sought to show us the unconditional love He wanted us to have for one another. I'm not aware of any Jesus Christ than the one in the Bible. That's the one you claim to believe in. It's also the one I claim to believe in. That fact that we don't agree on how every verse in the New Testament is to be interpreted does not mean that we're worshipping two or three or ten or twenty "different Jesuses."

My mother is 5,3 Born in the UK, was a dental assistant, had three children including me , has never travelled further than Paris, married only once and has three sisters and brother . Her name is Suzan. Now if someone says " oh I know Suzan , yes she's 5,3 from Russia, was a policewoman , travelled the world, married 3 times , has no brothers or sisters ,we can rest assured this is a different Suzan .

 

[John1.12]

And what if He did? If He chose to make a post-resurrection appearance to people in other parts of the world, how would that change the Christian message? If He believed that people outside the Holy Land were also entitled to hear His message, does that invalidate His life as it is recounted in the Bible?

My thoughts are that you have missed the whole point of His message. He did not seek to have us try to discredit one another. He sought to show us the unconditional love He wanted us to have for one another. I'm not aware of any Jesus Christ than the one in the Bible. That's the one you claim to believe in. It's also the one I claim to believe in. That fact that we don't agree on how every verse in the New Testament is to be interpreted does not mean that we're worshipping two or three or ten or twenty "different Jesuses."

//And what if He did? If He chose to make a post-resurrection appearance to people in other parts of the world, how would that change the Christian message?// Because after his ascension he's seated at the right hand of the Father . To say he visited China or the native Americans completely undermines the NT narrative.

 

[John1.12]

Paul was warning of an imminent "apostasia" or "falling away" from the truth. He was, you might say, fixated on this subject. You mentioned Galatians 1:6. Here are some more of his warnings:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

You have NOT answered my question. What are the "essentials" of Christianity?

This is Mormon " The church fell apart and Joseph Smith restored " script here .

 

[John1.12]

Paul was warning of an imminent "apostasia" or "falling away" from the truth. He was, you might say, fixated on this subject. You mentioned Galatians 1:6. Here are some more of his warnings:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…

Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.

You have NOT answered my question. What are the "essentials" of Christianity?

//What are the "essentials" of Christianity?// Like anything of this importance its what really matters. So in the case of the NT its the Gospel. That Jesus is who he said he is . That he died for the sins of the world ,was buried and rose again three days later . This involves Jesus not being the brother of Satan, or a created being , or that salvation is by what we ' do' But what we believe . It involves as it reads in 1.cor 15 ,1-4 ,which says ' according to the Scriptures..Jesus is not even close to the description given by LDS , The watchtower, Roman Catholicism, hinduism , Islam and such religions .

 

[Colt]

//The exact circumstances of the origin of The Urantia Book are unknown. The book and its publishers do not name a human author. Instead, it is written as if directly presented by numerous celestial beings appointed to the task of providing an "epochal" religious revelation. //

Gal 1
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we ,or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1 John 4:1

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.”

A celestial being appeared in Mary’s living room to inform her that her son was a child of promise. Her son, a local carpenter from Nazareth spent the last 3 years of his life preaching a new, simplified gospel before being apprehended by religious people and killed.

 

[Katzpur]

Ok , whats happened here is a ' scatter gun ' approach to those verses ..Each verse is within a particular book / letter written with a particular context in mind . There's literally too much here out of context to deal with?

Oh really? I just posted three verses which fully supported what you quoted from Galatians, and now all of a sudden, you can't deal with it because the verses I quoted are from different books? Get real. You want me to post each entire chapter so that you have the context in which the verses I already quoted appear, but then you'd just find another excuse to dismiss them.

 

[Katzpur]

//And what if He did? If He chose to make a post-resurrection appearance to people in other parts of the world, how would that change the Christian message?//

First off, learn to use the quote function. It's not hard and it will make your posts infinitely easier to read. Ask a staff member for help if you can't figure it out.

Because after his ascension he's seated at the right hand of the Father . To say he visited China or the native Americans completely undermines the NT narrative.

Why on earth would you say that? How does the same message given at a later date to different people "completely undermine the NT narrative"? That claim makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The New Testament narrative tells of Jesus' earthly ministry to one relatively small group of people living on the earth. The Book of Mormon narrative tells of His post-resurrection ministry to another group of people. Maybe you don't know the meaning of the word "undermine," because you're sure not using it properly.

 

[Katzpur]

//What are the "essentials" of Christianity?// Like anything of this importance its what really matters. So in the case of the NT its the Gospel. That Jesus is who he said he is . That he died for the sins of the world ,was buried and rose again three days later . This involves Jesus not being the brother of Satan, or a created being , or that salvation is by what we ' do' But what we believe . It involves as it reads in 1.cor 15 ,1-4 ,which says ' according to the Scriptures..Jesus is not even close to the description given by LDS , The watchtower, Roman Catholicism, hinduism , Islam and such religions .

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 reads, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures..." I believe that every bit as much as you do. Who the hell do you think you are to be telling me that you know what I do or do not believe? Here's my LDS "description of Jesus". Perhaps you can tell me in what way it is "not even close" to what you as an apparently bona fide, genuine, real live Christian believe.

I believe that Jesus was with His Father, God Almighty, in the beginning, and that He was himself "God" at that time.
I believe that Jesus was the creator of our universe, acting as His Father's agent and under His Father's direction.
I believe that even before our earth was ever creation, Jesus was designated to be the Savior of the World.
I believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, a young woman by the name of Mary, in a stable in Bethlehem.
I believe that even at a very young age, Jesus was "about His Father's business," teaching in the synagogue.
I believe that in His early thirties, Jesus began His earthly ministry, and that He called twelve men to be His Apostles.
I believe that Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, and made it possible for the lame to walk.
I believe that Jesus fed five thousands with a handful of fish and a few loaves of bread.
I believe that Jesus calmed the waters of the Sea of Galilee with the simply commandment, of "Peace. Be still."
I believe that Jesus raised a man, Lazarus, from the dead.
I believe that Jesus taught a gospel of love, mercy, forgiveness, compassion and comfort.
I believe that, unlike anyone who lived before or after Him, Jesus Christ alone lived a perfect life.
I believe that Jesus was nailed to a cross where He suffered unimaginable pain and died to give us the promise of eternal life.
I believe that Jesus asked His Father to forgive those who put Him to death.
I believe that after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared in the flesh to His Apostles and to many of His followers.
I believe that Jesus ascended into Heaven where He sits today on the right hand of His Father.

So these things aren't "even close" to what you believe? What do you believe instead of what I have just posted?

 

[Katzpur]

This is Mormon " The church fell apart and Joseph Smith restored " script here .

Is it? Funny, but I didn't even mention either Joseph Smith or a Restoration. Aren't you getting just a bit ahead of yourself?

Now, if you believe that either Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy teaches the same doctrines Jesus Christ did, then you can argue that an apostasy never took place (even though Paul clearly believed it was beginning to take place even in his day). If you do believe that somewhere along the line, both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy began to adopt doctrine not taught by Jesus Christ, then you absolutely must acknowledge that an apostasy did, in fact, take place. Protestantism was a result of "protest" against certain Catholic doctrines and practices, and if your church is not a part of Restorationist Christianity, it's part of Protestant Christianity (even if you claim to be non-denominational). Those are the facts, and you simply can't have it both ways.

 

[Katzpur]

My mother is 5,3 Born in the UK, was a dental assistant, had three children including me , has never travelled further than Paris, married only once and has three sisters and brother . Her name is Suzan. Now if someone says " oh I know Suzan , yes she's 5,3 from Russia, was a policewoman , travelled the world, married 3 times , has no brothers or sisters ,we can rest assured this is a different Suzan .

Cute. There are a lot of different Jesuses, too. In Mexico City alone, I'm sure you could find a Jesus Hernandez, a Jesus Montoya, a Jesus Gomez, a Jesus Archuletta, a Jesus Ramirez, a Jesus Martinez, and a Jesus Perez.

Tell me how many Jesus Christs there are? Jesus Christ was God's Only Begotten Son. If I believe in the Jesus Christ that was this Son, I believe in the only Jesus Christ who ever lived. Now what part of that is too complicated for you? 'Cause I can try to dumb it down some.

 

[Jane.Doe]

So which bit did I say that was false?

Barry, I’ve personally corrected many of the things you claim here about what Katz, I, and other LDS Christians believe. There’s no good reason for you to keep repeating the same false statements.

 

[Katzpur]

Barry, I’ve personally corrected many of the things you claim here about what Katz, I, and other LDS Christians believe. There’s no good reason for you to keep repeating the same false statements.

So you've already addressed these topics, Jane? Jeesh. Some people. All I can say is that I'm just glad I didn't bother to waste my time repeating what you'd already told him.

 

[Jane.Doe]

So you've already addressed these topics, Jane? Jeesh. Some people. All I can say is that I'm just glad I didn't bother to waste my time repeating what you'd already told him.

Yep. Barry and I had long conversation.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such . But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view . Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian though - so they share your worldview.

 

[John1.12]

A celestial being appeared in Mary’s living room to inform her that her son was a child of promise. Her son, a local carpenter from Nazareth spent the last 3 years of his life preaching a new, simplified gospel before being apprehended by religious people and killed.

Gal 1 . Is AFTER the cross . Paul is saying if an Angel gives new revelation TODAY thats contrary to his message its false.

 

[John1.12]

Oh really? I just posted three verses which fully supported what you quoted from Galatians, and now all of a sudden, you can't deal with it because the verses I quoted are from different books? Get real. You want me to post each entire chapter so that you have the context in which the verses I already quoted appear, but then you'd just find another excuse to dismiss them.

One verse in context at a time helps .

 

[John1.12]

First off, learn to use the quote function. It's not hard and it will make your posts infinitely easier to read. Ask a staff member for help if you can't figure it out.

Why on earth would you say that? How does the same message given at a later date to different people "completely undermine the NT narrative"? That claim makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The New Testament narrative tells of Jesus' earthly ministry to one relatively small group of people living on the earth. The Book of Mormon narrative tells of His post-resurrection ministry to another group of people. Maybe you don't know the meaning of the word "undermine," because you're sure not using it properly.

Ok how about ' contradict ' . If its clear from the bible that Jesus did not go to China, or to native indians post resurrection and another source says he did . One source is wrong. They both cannot be correct This is simple logic.

 

[John1.12]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 reads, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures..." I believe that every bit as much as you do. Who the hell do you think you are to be telling me that you know what I do or do not believe? Here's my LDS "description of Jesus". Perhaps you can tell me in what way it is "not even close" to what you as an apparently bona fide, genuine, real live Christian believe.

I believe that Jesus was with His Father, God Almighty, in the beginning, and that He was himself "God" at that time.
I believe that Jesus was the creator of our universe, acting as His Father's agent and under His Father's direction.
I believe that even before our earth was ever creation, Jesus was designated to be the Savior of the World.
I believe that Jesus was born to a virgin, a young woman by the name of Mary, in a stable in Bethlehem.
I believe that even at a very young age, Jesus was "about His Father's business," teaching in the synagogue.
I believe that in His early thirties, Jesus began His earthly ministry, and that He called twelve men to be His Apostles.
I believe that Jesus healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, and made it possible for the lame to walk.
I believe that Jesus fed five thousands with a handful of fish and a few loaves of bread.
I believe that Jesus calmed the waters of the Sea of Galilee with the simply commandment, of "Peace. Be still."
I believe that Jesus raised a man, Lazarus, from the dead.
I believe that Jesus taught a gospel of love, mercy, forgiveness, compassion and comfort.
I believe that, unlike anyone who lived before or after Him, Jesus Christ alone lived a perfect life.
I believe that Jesus was nailed to a cross where He suffered unimaginable pain and died to give us the promise of eternal life.
I believe that Jesus asked His Father to forgive those who put Him to death.
I believe that after His Resurrection, Jesus appeared in the flesh to His Apostles and to many of His followers.
I believe that Jesus ascended into Heaven where He sits today on the right hand of His Father.

So these things aren't "even close" to what you believe? What do you believe instead of what I have just posted?

Oh so there's no difference between what I believe and Mormons believe then ? Great. So Joseph Smith was wrong then ,that all churches are an abomination and corrupt . That Joseph Smith was chosen to restore all things ? What you have there is an 'out line ' . It says on the surface some comparative things many Christians would agree upon. As I've spent many hours studying with Mormons who have come to me door, and read and studied the literature I can assure you that behind that menu we don't mean the same things . Its the same words but different dictionary.

 

[John1.12]

So you've already addressed these topics, Jane? Jeesh. Some people. All I can say is that I'm just glad I didn't bother to waste my time repeating what you'd already told him.

Its helpful to discuss this topic from scripture and avoid getting personal