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Who is the first and the last?

Teritos

Active Member
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?

Cause he's an incarnation not the source.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?
Jesus is God, therefore He has that title.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?
You answered your own question.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Imo, that verse cannot be about Jesus since Jesus never promised to come back to earth, but rather said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

It was God that was to come quickly, not Jesus. The question is how God would come.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Cause he's an incarnation not the source.
An incarnation would be God in the flesh, so it would be the Source. Jesus was not God, He was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
An incarnation would be God in the flesh, so it would be the Source. Jesus was not God, He was a Manifestation of God.

1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Some people don't see the reflection as the source. It's purely a reflection of the source.

The messenger isn't god just because he represents him.

Unless you're saying god (the creator) IS flesh?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Some people don't see the reflection as the source. It's purely a reflection of the source.
That is absolutely correct. A reflection cannot be the same as what it is reflecting.
Also, if God is invisible Jesus could not have been God, since many people saw Jesus.
Also, if Jesus was a mediator between God and men, that means he could not have been God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
That is absolutely correct. A reflection cannot be the same as what it is reflecting.
Also, if God is invisible Jesus could not have been God, since many people saw Jesus.
Also, if Jesus was a mediator between God and men, that means he could not have been God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

I get the other side's view, though. Why would a person want to separate the incarnation from the source?

What purpose would it serve to "see" jesus apart from god or as god?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
The scriptures tell us who Jesus is, and they tell us that Jesus is not God.

#1883 Trailblazer
I disagree, the entirety of scripture portrays Jesus as God and Savior. If He isn’t God He was not able to live a sinless life. If He didn’t live a sinless life He could not be the Savior. If He was not fully God and fully human He could not be Mediator between God and humanity. Yet, He was the unique Son of God/Son of man.

God Alone is the Savior. Jesus is the only Savior only because He is God.


Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Whohas told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
Isaiah 45:21
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I get the other side's view, though. Why would a person want to separate the incarnation from the source?
It is not about what people want, it is about what God is. God is not a man, and God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. God is, has always been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.. Jesus was made known through Jesus, who was a Manifestation of God.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

What purpose would it serve to "see" jesus apart from god or as god?
What purpose would it serve to see Jesus as God, other than to allow Christians to claim that Christianity is the only true religion and that there never was and never will be any other true religion?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?

I believe God Alone is the First and the Last and none else. I do not believe Jesus (pbuh) ever said he was God. But then I don't accept the Gospels as being a reliable account of what Jesus (pbuh) said.

EDIT: I should have added, or any of the other books of the NT.
 
Last edited:

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It is not about what people want, it is about what God is. God is not a man, and God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. God is, has always been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.. Jesus was made known through Jesus, who was a Manifestation of God.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49


What purpose would it serve to see Jesus as God, other than to allow Christians to claim that Christianity is the only true religion and that there never was and never will be any other true religion?

I can't agree or disagree cause I don't believe in god. If I did, it would be hard to take a side because it makes sense both ways regardless christians intentions and interpretations.

Why is it wrong to see this both ways?

Does it always need to be about christians?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I disagree, the entirety of scripture portrays Jesus as God and Savior.
What are the verses where Jesus claims to be God?
If He isn’t God He was not able to live a sinless life. If He didn’t live a sinless life He could not be the Savior.
That is all Church dogma. Jesus was sinless because He was a Manifestation of God and a perfect mirror image of God. Jesus did not have to be God to be sinless.
If He was not fully God and fully human He could not be Mediator between God and humanity. Yet, He was the unique Son of God/Son of man.
Jesus was the only Son of God but He was not the only Son of Man, as the Bible shows there were others who were called the Son of man. Jesus was part God and part man because He had a twofold nature, a human nature and a divine nature, born of the substance of God. Jesus was a hybrid, a God-man, for lack of a better word, and that is why He was able to mediate between God and man.
God Alone is the Savior. Jesus is the only Savior only because He is God.

Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
Isaiah 45:21
Jesus was a Savior, and He did not need to be God to be Savior, because Jesus was a Representative of God on earth. The above verse does not refer to Jesus, it refers to God who is also our Savior.

As Jesus said, “I and my Father are one (John 10:30) meaning that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of God Himself. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why is it wrong to see this both ways?
You can see it however you want to see it and according to Baha'u'llah you would not be wrong to see Jesus as God, since Jesus was a perfect reflection of God's names and attributes.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.......” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe God Alone is the First and the Last and none else. I do not believe Jesus (pbuh) ever said he was God. But then I don't accept the Gospels as being a reliable account of what Jesus (pbuh) said.

EDIT: I should have added, or any of the other books of the NT.
This video has it down pat who Jesus was and who God is. I am going to start a thread on this as soon as I have time, but since you are here and the subject has arisen, here it is. It has to be the best video on Jesus and God that I have ever seen. These Muslims clearly understand who God is and who Jesus is and they make logical arguments.

 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
God in the OT,
I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6

Jesus in the NT,
I am the first and the last, and the living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

The title "the first and the last" is most likely the highest title of God and Jesus uses this title for Himself, for he is God.

Jesus also uses this title in Revelation 22:13,
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

If he is not God, why does he use that title?

For you maybe for you but your "I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me. Isaiah 44:6" has no meaning beyond your faith. The gods and goddess of other faiths are as equal as the god of the new and old testament. You can repeat it all you like but it will still be not be any more true.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You can see it however you want to see it and according to Baha'u'llah you would not be wrong to see Jesus as God, since Jesus was a perfect reflection of God's names and attributes.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.......” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 54

Why do believers suggest others need to be right or wrong?

I see more disagreement with believers than they do with nonbelievers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why do believers suggest others need to be right or wrong?
Because some believers need others to be wrong so that they can be the only ones who are right.
I see more disagreement with believers than they do with nonbelievers.
That would make sense since nonbelievers do not have religions that differ from other religions.....
and they do not have any God(s) they believe in, so what do they have to disagree about?
 
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