He is Risen - The Evidence

[SigurdReginson]

What I'm looking for, specifically, is evidence outside of the bible.

Here's the thing... The bible seems like a flawed book to me from the contradictions I've seen in it. It's not trustworthy enough for me as evidence on it's own.

There are things in the bible that can be verified, but then again every religious text has things that can be verified. That doesn't make everything in the book true unless it all can be verified - especially when we are talking about supernatural claims.

 

[MatthewA]

Haha, that is the thing SR; it takes faith to believe; it requires even myself as a believer to be like; damn I need to hold myself back but I cant do it ; my heart is cold and it there is a void in it.

That is what happened to me anyway A void in my heart; and desired to go and look and see who the Lord Jesus Christ was by reading the gospel; As a believer went through many different things just keep talking to God having faith.

Believe that might be the thing that people might have the biggest problem with, because they would rather have proof, and the thing is me as a Christian believer cant say afterlife really exists, though do believe in the afterlife because of Jesus Christ you see, by faith.

Do you have any thoughts about these things @SigurdReginson

 

[PruePhillip]

What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

If you have to look for evidence for your faith then maybe you don't have faith.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Haha, that is the thing SR; it takes faith to believe; it requires even myself as a believer to be like; damn I need to hold myself back but I cant do it ; my heart is cold and it there is a void in it.

That is what happened to me anyway A void in my heart; and desired to go and look and see who the Lord Jesus Christ was by reading the gospel; As a believer went through many different things just keep talking to God having faith.

Believe that might be the thing that people might have the biggest problem with, because they would rather have proof, and the thing is me as a Christian believer cant say afterlife really exists, though do believe in the afterlife because of Jesus Christ you see, by faith.

Do you have any thoughts about these things @SigurdReginson

It sounds to me like your faith has helped fill a hole in your heart, and I'm glad to hear that it's given you a nice big slice of happiness.

For me, my faith was an unhealthy thing. I spent the majority of my life relying on faith. Rather than using it to improve my life, I was using it to escape from it - and as a literalist, things such as "giving my problems to god" meant I never had to face them. They just never went away, because I wasn't dealing with them.

I'm not saying faith leads to this at all, just that I was using it in a harmful way.

Only when I confronted my problems, took them all onto my shoulders, and cut through them with a lot of effort did I finally conquer them. In respecting myself, and my surroundings, I finally able to take my life back.

There's way more to it than that, but that's my experience with faith at least. One of my weaknesses is to dissociate, so I am kind of forced to block my mind from going there, because that's where faith has been shown to lead me from my experience.

As for your question, belief by faith and belief by evidence both seem to tackle the same realm: beliefs about objective reality. Why should anyone prefer faith over evidence in regards to understanding the reality we all share?

 

[MatthewA]

It sounds to me like your faith has helped fill a hole in your heart, and I'm glad to hear that it's given you a nice big slice of happiness.

Thank you for the response SigurdReginson,


Haha, do believe my life has been changed by and through faith; and it doesn't have anything to do with being happy. Because with faith (Hebrews 11:1) comes suffering also joy (Ephesians 3:1-6; Romans 5:1-6)) as well; but through trials (1 Peter 1:7) produces endurance and as you are enduring going through the different aspects and trials of life while having faith and trusting God; and living by the spirit which brings forth (Galatians 5:1-24) fruits of love; joy, peace, faithfulness, patience, forgiveness, mercy, forbearance towards others, and renewed mind and heart towards heavenly things (Colossians 3:1-4) rather than what the world has to offer.

The world according to the bible only contains; the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. ( 1 John 2:16)

There are only number of topics, to talk about which are almost unlimited, but talking about what is the most interesting depends on the individual. One of my favorite things to have done for the past 5 years was learn most of the new testament.

For me, my faith was an unhealthy thing. I spent the majority of my life relying on faith. Rather than using it to improve my life, I was using it to escape from it - and as a literalist, things such as "giving my problems to god" meant I never had to face them. They just never went away, because I wasn't dealing with them.

I would love to understand more about how your faith was unhealthy. Having a relative experience somewhat when first at the age of 26 years and reading the Gospels was a very mean Christian. Was a very judgmental of others, but later on continuing learning and seeking after God and the truth of Christ Jesus, my life changed, as holding on to them and reading the Gospels, and different topics in the bible which expanded my knowledge by a lot thanks to the holy spirit to help me remember.

Topics in the bible: Creation, Creation of Man, Choices, Praying for Enemies, Resurrection, Eternal Life, Holy Spirit, Communication with God, the human heart, human condition, sicknesses, Devil, Demons, Satan, even the Defeat of Satan, Evil, Good, Light, Darkness

When it talks about giving your problems to God it does mean cast your worries and burdens on God because He does care for you, however we all people have to go through trials and ups and downs in life until we pass away. God is a God of comfort and that is something He desires for believers to have in my best estimation.

I'm not saying faith leads to this at all, just that I was using it in a harmful way.

Only when I confronted my problems, took them all onto my shoulders, and cut through them with a lot of effort did I finally conquer them. In respecting myself, and my surroundings, I finally able to take my life back.

Understood. For me

( I am human but nothing good about me ; no matter what anyone else has to say ` though am content in whom I am as a human being ` by and through Christ Jesus)

still haven't conquered over anything; still the same old human being though Christ in and through me by faith given from God has allowed my mind to be changed and heart to be transformed from being completely have freedom which is found in Christ Jesus and there is strength in Him by and through Faith.

There's way more to it than that, but that's my experience with faith at least. One of my weaknesses is to dissociate, so I am kind of forced to block my mind from going there, because that's where faith has been shown to lead me from my experience.

Okay.

As for your question, belief by faith and belief by evidence both seem to tackle the same realm: beliefs about objective reality. Why should anyone prefer faith over evidence in regards to understanding the reality we all share?

Understood.

My view and understanding according to Hebrews 11:1; that when it comes to having faith from believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and the life, burial, death, and resurrection and the promises which come by and through the Lord Jesus Christ and God ~ Are unobservable. Though there are observable accounts in the bible pertaining to the history of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His 12 disciples.

Where as belief by evidence: You are able to observe, touch, feel, and understand that it is real. The spiritual would be an objective or subjective truth which comes from the holy bible about a place that is unobservable.

 

[blü 2]

Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
In this thread, I will show that claim is false, and that it is both irrational, amd unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

How are things, old friend?

I fear there is no evidence of the resurrection. The reasons are many.

There's not even one authenticated example of a supernatural event in reality. Indeed the word "supernatural" means "outside nature", that's to say, outside objective reality, which means such things are only known to exist as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

There are six relevant accounts in the NT, one by Paul, one in each of the four gospels, and one in Acts 1.

None is by an eyewitness, or even claims to be.

None is independent.

None is contemporary ─ the earliest, Paul's, is 20 or more years after the traditional date of the crucifixion. The first with any details is Mark, 45 years or so on, and it ends with the empty tomb. Matthew and Luke are mid-80s CE, 55 years or so after the event, and John's account a decade or so later still.

Each of the six accounts contradicts the other five in major ways. (We can go into details if you wish.)

When you consider the quality of evidence needed to demonstrate the reality of a purported supernatural event, it seems plain that the quality of the evidence for the resurrection is not only not in the ballpark, it's on a distant continent.

You may recall a few years back the "milk-drinking" miracles attributed to Ganesha in India, and some videos on the net of statues of Ganesha drinking milk. As evidence, those videos were/are many orders of magnitude better than the NT's evidence for the resurrection, but apart from some who already believed, I'm not aware that anyone else was persuaded.

I'd say that while someone may be able to accept the resurrection (though, which version?) by faith, the evidence is entirely incapable of making the case for such an historical event.

 

[nPeace]

Got any independent evidence?

I'm sure it's in the OP.
You didn't see it? That's odd.
I'll isolate it specially for you Christine.
The crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely in either AD 30 or AD 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is established as a historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources, although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details.

Oops. Sorry. You meant the resurrection.
It's in the OP. Evidence, past and present. Sorry Christine.

 

[nPeace]

So let me get this straight: you're using the Christ myth to prove the Christ myth is not true...

Christ myth? Don't tell me you are still living in that old debunked story. We've move forward.
Don't get left behind.

 

[nPeace]

If that were true, we ought to see lots of reports from non-Christians attesting to this. Do we?

I'm not talking about people necessarily agreeing that Jesus was genuine, but accounts that, for instance, respond to Jesus's "miracles" by explaining them away as trickery, demonic influence, etc.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. However, it doesn't seem to be contesting the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm sure it's in the OP.
You didn't see it? That's odd.
I'll isolate it specially for you Christine.
The crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely in either AD 30 or AD 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is established as a historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources, although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details.

Oops. Sorry. You meant the resurrection.
It's in the OP. Evidence, past and present. Sorry Christine.

There did not seem to be any evidence for the resurrection in the OP.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Christ myth? Don't tell me you are still living in that old debunked story. We've move forward.
Don't get left behind.

The Christ myth is far from debunked. Where did you get that crazy idea from?

 

[Dave Watchman]

What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

That was a good post.

But the evidence would reveal more, too much to consider here.

I know that it's frustrating, maybe even troubling, that you and I somehow know, but others do not. And we can't convince them. Jesus said that He would not lose any given to Him by the Father.

Check out these movie trailers.

I haven't seen any of them yet, I'm not a movie guy.

The Chosen Season One Official Trailer (HD)

The Young Messiah Official Trailer #1

RISEN - Official Trailer #2

That last one looks good.

The Roman guy running around trying to find Jesus' body.

And that's the point. The Jews knew it. They were afraid it would happen so they had men guard the tomb.

Because the bottom line is this, if they could have produced a body, there would be no Christianity, there would be no movies made about Jesus, and we would not be sitting here talking about it all day 2000 years latter.

If the Old Time stiff neck Jews could have found a body, they would have paraded it around all Easter Sunday.

And there wouldn't be any Easter Sundays.

It would have been: "nothing to see here folks, move along.

It would be like Edward G Robinson yelling: "where's your Moses now!

I bet we are getting close to all the empirical that we are going to be able to handle when this same Jesus returns in the like manner that the men of Galilee saw Him go.

40 days after the middle of the heptad.

Isaac Newton would have loved to see one of our days.

Giddy up,
White horse Rider.

 

[nPeace]

What I'm looking for, specifically, is evidence outside of the bible.

Here's the thing... The bible seems like a flawed book to me from the contradictions I've seen in it. It's not trustworthy enough for me as evidence on it's own.

There are things in the bible that can be verified, but then again every religious text has things that can be verified. That doesn't make everything in the book true unless it all can be verified - especially when we are talking about supernatural claims.

Some people are looking for things that are there, but yet not seeing them. Matthew 13:10-16
Did you read the OP? I thought I was quite thorough in presenting extra-Biblical evidence.

The Bible is a collection of books, written over a period of 1600 years, by some 40 different individuals.
Therefore, it is not "on its own". They are independent sources.

As for seeming contradictions, are you aware that what you see as a contradiction, is to Jack, not a contradiction?
So contradictions are simply subjective opinions of different people, and we are okay with that.

True, there are some things that cannot be verified, and probably never will, but this is life. That's why we have faith.
Can you verify that the sun is 94.079 million miles away from us.
Even now there is much faith in science, and some are calling for more freedom to have faith - asking the community to put as much faith in math as they historically have in evidence.

We cannot verify that Jesus walked on water, of restored a man's withered hand, but we can certainly verify the authenticity and trustworthiness of the Bible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Some people are looking for things that are there, but yet not seeing them. Matthew 13:10-16
Did you read the OP? I thought I was quite thorough in presenting extra-Biblical evidence.

The Bible is a collection of books, written over a period of 1600 years, by some 40 different individuals.
Therefore, it is not "on its own". They are independent sources.

As for seeming contradictions, are you aware that what you see as a contradiction, is to Jack, not a contradiction?
So contradictions are simply subjective opinions of different people, and we are okay with that.

True, there are some things that cannot be verified, and probably never will, but this is life. That's why we have faith.
Can you verify that the sun is 94.079 million miles away from us.
Even now there is much faith in science, and some are calling for more freedom to have faith - asking the community to put as much faith in math as they historically have in evidence.

We cannot verify that Jesus walked on water, of restored a man's withered hand, but we can certainly verify the authenticity and trustworthiness of the Bible.

Nope, if you are relying on the "authenticity and trustworthiness of the Bible" then you have no evidence. When tested the Bible fails again and again.

 

[MatthewA]

That was a good post.

But the evidence would reveal more, too much to consider here.

I know that it's frustrating, maybe even troubling, that you and I somehow know, but others do not. And we can't convince them. Jesus said that He would not lose any given to Him by the Father.

Check out these movie trailers.

I haven't seen any of them yet, I'm not a movie guy.

The Chosen Season One Official Trailer (HD)

The Young Messiah Official Trailer #1

RISEN - Official Trailer #2

That last one looks good.

The Roman guy running around trying to find Jesus' body.

And that's the point. The Jews knew it. They were afraid it would happen so they had men guard the tomb.

Because the bottom line is this, if they could have produced a body, there would be no Christianity, there would be no movies made about Jesus, and we would not be sitting here talking about it all day 2000 years latter.

If the Old Time stiff neck Jews could have found a body, they would have paraded it around all Easter Sunday.

And there wouldn't be any Easter Sundays.

It would have been: "nothing to see here folks, move along.

It would be like Edward G Robinson yelling: "where's your Moses now!

I bet we are getting close to all the empirical that we are going to be able to handle when this same Jesus returns in the like manner that the men of Galilee saw Him go.

40 days after the middle of the heptad.

Isaac Newton would have loved to see one of our days.

Giddy up,
White horse Rider.

Thank you Dave, giddy up whitehorserider.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Christ myth? Don't tell me you are still living in that old debunked story. We've move forward.
Don't get left behind.

You still haven't presented any evidence that Jesus has risen...you're still living in that old debunked story, aren't you? We've moved forward, and you're being left behind.

 

[MatthewA]

Christ myth? Don't tell me you are still living in that old debunked story. We've move forward.
Don't get left behind.

Freedom, it is alright.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
In this thread, I will show that claim is false, and that it is both irrational, amd unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
The following is looking at the facts reasonably.


The resurrection - Evidence
Past
What we know : The Facts
It was the followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus was risen.
The Bible says Jesus appeared - not to the Romans; not to the Jewish leaders, who wanted him dead, and would certainly have been happy to kill him a second time - but to his faithful followers.
Why did Jesus show himself only to his followers, and not the world? He wanted them to know that he was alive, as he promised he would be.
How did he go, undetected? Surely, if he was risen, people would know, and it would be widely reported. It would make "headline news".
No. Here is why...
(John 20:14-20) 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

Spoiler: Read further...

15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. 19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Luke 24:13-43 ; John 21:1-8

The Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
This is because Jesus was not raised in (with) a physically body, and he did not manifest in the same body he was put to death with.
So people passing Jesus, would not have been "Look! There is that man the Romans crucified."
This is a simple fact made in the Bible. Only Jesus follower had clear proof of Jesus' resurrection.
So only Jesus' followers were in a position to record that fact. No one else knew.

What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

You haven't got any evidence. Your only evidence is that 12 men who we are not even sure were real--at least there is no historical evidence for any of them-- CLAIM they saw Jesus. That's it. And they didn't leave any written testimony behind. It's a rumor, hearsay, stories handed down from generation to generation. If you took this into a court you'd be laughed out the building.

 

[nPeace]

How are things, old friend?

I fear there is no evidence of the resurrection. The reasons are many.

There's not even one authenticated example of a supernatural event in reality. Indeed the word "supernatural" means "outside nature", that's to say, outside objective reality, which means such things are only known to exist as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

There are six relevant accounts in the NT, one by Paul, one in each of the four gospels, and one in Acts 1.

None is by an eyewitness, or even claims to be.

None is independent.

None is contemporary ─ the earliest, Paul's, is 20 or more years after the traditional date of the crucifixion. The first with any details is Mark, 45 years or so on, and it ends with the empty tomb. Matthew and Luke are mid-80s CE, 55 years or so after the event, and John's account a decade or so later still.

Each of the six accounts contradicts the other five in major ways. (We can go into details if you wish.)

When you consider the quality of evidence needed to demonstrate the reality of a purported supernatural event, it seems plain that the quality of the evidence for the resurrection is not only not in the ballpark, it's on a distant continent.

You may recall a few years back the "milk-drinking" miracles attributed to Ganesha in India, and some videos on the net of statues of Ganesha drinking milk. As evidence, those videos were/are many orders of magnitude better than the NT's evidence for the resurrection, but apart from some who already believed, I'm not aware that anyone else was persuaded.

I'd say that while someone may be able to accept the resurrection (though, which version?) by faith, the evidence is entirely incapable of making the case for such an historical event.

Paul would repeat to you what he said nearly 2000 years ago.
Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such? Why are we also in danger every hour? Daily I face death. This is as sure as my exultation over you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. If like other men, I have fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.” Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.
(1 Corinthians 15:12-33)

These men were convince that what Jesus taught them was the truth. They were convinced that Jesus was raised up (they were not hallucinating. The had evidence that Jesus was with them.
Whe the apostles received holy spirit, and spoke different languages, they knew they were not dreaming.
Nothing could sway them from carrying out Jesus' commands... not even facing death, in some of the most cruel ways.

Same as to this day.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Paul would repeat to you what he said nearly 2000 years ago.
Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.
Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of being dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of being such? Why are we also in danger every hour? Daily I face death. This is as sure as my exultation over you, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. If like other men, I have fought with wild beasts at Ephesus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.” Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits.
(1 Corinthians 15:12-33)

These men were convince that what Jesus taught them was the truth. They were convinced that Jesus was raised up (they were not hallucinating. The had evidence that Jesus was with them.
Whe the apostles received holy spirit, and spoke different languages, they knew they were not dreaming.
Nothing could sway them from carrying out Jesus' commands... not even facing death, in some of the most cruel ways.

Same as to this day.

More mythology. Were some Christians persecuted? There is no doubt about that. Were they ever willing martyrs? That story does not appear to be true when checked.