He is Risen - The Evidence

[nPeace]

Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
In this thread, I will show that claim is false, and that it is both irrational, amd unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
The following is looking at the facts reasonably.

First, it is important to mention the false claims...
The Christ myth theory, also known as the Jesus myth theory, Jesus mythicism, or the Jesus ahistoricity theory, is described by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, as the position that "..the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity." It includes the view that the story of Jesus is largely mythological, and has little basis in historical fact. It is a fringe theory, supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism or cognate disciplines. It is criticised for its outdated reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the mainstream historical view.

There are three strands of mythicism, including the view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul. A second stance is that there was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels. A third view is that no conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him.

This sound very similar to what critics say about most of the characters and events in the Bible.
They claim myths, based on what...
Most Christ mythicists follow a threefold argument: they question the reliability of the Pauline epistles and the Gospels to establish the historicity of Jesus; they note the lack of information on Jesus in non-Christian sources from the first and early second centuries; and they argue that early Christianity had syncretistic and mythological origins, as reflected in both the Pauline epistles and the gospels, with Jesus being a celestial being who was concretized in the Gospels. Therefore, Christianity was not founded on the shared memories of a man, but rather a shared mytheme.

Jesus - The man
What we know : The Facts
The Bible centuries ago, before modern acceptance, stated factually, that a Jewish man called Jesus the Christ / Messiah walked the earth; had followers; was put to death by the Romans.
It was not until recent, that critics of the Bible, finally conceded that there was indeed a man called Jesus Christ, who had followers, and was put to death by the Romans.
Virtually all scholars support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed. Among these scholars was G. A. Wells, a well-known mythicist who changed his mind and ultimately believed in a minimal historical Jesus.

Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed. Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."
In other words, Michael is actually calling out the hypocrites.

The Bible had also stated how Jesus, was put to death, and that was also recently accepted by Bible critics.
Based on both Biblical, and extra-Biblical sources, the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

The lesson that should have been learned...
The Bible was telling the truth... again, even though it was not believed by critics.

The resurrection - Evidence
Past
What we know : The Facts
It was the followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus was risen.
The Bible says Jesus appeared - not to the Romans; not to the Jewish leaders, who wanted him dead, and would certainly have been happy to kill him a second time - but to his faithful followers.
Why did Jesus show himself only to his followers, and not the world? He wanted them to know that he was alive, as he promised he would be.
How did he go, undetected? Surely, if he was risen, people would know, and it would be widely reported. It would make "headline news".
No. Here is why...
(John 20:14-20) 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

Spoiler: Read further...

15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. 19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Luke 24:13-43 ; John 21:1-8

The Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
This is because Jesus was not raised in (with) a physically body, and he did not manifest in the same body he was put to death with.
So people passing Jesus, would not have been "Look! There is that man the Romans crucified."
This is a simple fact made in the Bible. Only Jesus follower had clear proof of Jesus' resurrection.
So only Jesus' followers were in a position to record that fact. No one else knew.

What lesson should people have learned, that keeps repeating itself?
What the Bible says, is true, but people keep denying it until they have no choice but to concede, when it is proven.

Present
What we know : The Facts
The Bible says... (Matthew 9:35-38) 35 And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity. 36 On seeing the crowds, he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”
(Luke 4:43) But he said to them: “I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”

Jesus preached about the kingdom of God, to the cities and villages.
Jesus' followers did the same. Jesus promised to be with his followers in this work, which they were to carry on. Matthew 24:14 ; Matthew 28:18-20

Today, millions of Christian followers of Jesus, are preaching the same message - the kingdom of God, in the same manner that Jesus did, throughout the entire globe, and amazing growth is seen as more disciples are added.

What is the evidence Jesus is with them?
In 33 CE, the evidence was seen in 1) the holy spirit empowering Jesus followers, and 2) the growth in the disciples, and their activity.
Today, the same is seen among his faithful followers.
While it is expected that there will be imitators, and counterfeits, this does not render the evidence void, just as fraud in science does not render the other evidence void.
This is reasonable, is it not?

Unreasonable demands and irrational expectations
Based on the above, it is unreasonable to demand that Jesus should have left any trace outside what we have - the testimony of those who witnessed Jesus alive after his murder.
It is irrational to expect that Jesus should somehow appear to unbelievers to prove to them that he live, and perhaps beg them to accept that fact.

The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:8-10) 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. 9 But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.
In other words, God does not care that the opponents of the Bible, do not believe. He cares only that those who know him, or want to know him, based on the available evidence, are blessed with more - knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
Why?
The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
To the proud person, the things of God are foolishness.

Imagine that you had some pearls of very high value, and you wanted to share them with everyone.
However, some people don't see the value in them. They take them and just throw them away, or pound them to dust, to make some kind of recreational drug. Would you give those people your pearls?
That would be like giving food to people who take it and bury it in the earth. Matthew 7:6

If you could predict what a person would do, you would be selective in whom you give good things to.
This is the way God deals. Because God knows the heart of man, he is selective in who receives truth.
That's reasonable, isn't it?

What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

 

[ChristineM]

Got any independent evidence?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps you would be willing to discuss this one point at a time. I always find excessive green ink rather distracting and an indication that the poster does not have the evidence that he claims to have. I do not see any actual evidence in the OP, just claims from the Bible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed. Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."
In other words, Michael is actually calling out the hypocrites.

But the existence of people in that "mass of pagan personages" is questioned when they have similar evidence to Jesus.

For instance, take Homer: there's plenty of doubt as to whether Homer was a real person. It's just that the existence or non-existence of Homer doesn't usually matter that much; whether he's real or not, somebody wrote the poems attributed to him.

 

[Valjean]

But the existence of people in that "mass of pagan personages" is questioned when they have similar evidence to Jesus.

For instance, take Homer: there's plenty of doubt as to whether Homer was a real person. It's just that the existence or non-existence of Homer doesn't usually matter that much; whether he's real or not, somebody wrote the poems attributed to him.

And then there's Prester John and King Arthur.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The resurrection - Evidence
Past
What we know : The Facts
It was the followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus was risen.
The Bible says Jesus appeared - not to the Romans; not to the Jewish leaders, who wanted him dead, and would certainly have been happy to kill him a second time - but to his faithful followers.
Why did Jesus show himself only to his followers, and not the world? He wanted them to know that he was alive, as he promised he would be.
How did he go, undetected? Surely, if he was risen, people would know, and it would be widely reported. It would make "headline news".
No. Here is why...
(John 20:14-20) 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

The Bible doesn't say that Jesus was risen. Not originally, anyhow.

The oldest verson of the oldest Gospel, Mark, ends with the tomb empty and the disciples confused and afraid.

As with Jesus's miracle stories, it was only as time went on that the story was embellished, first with Jesus just appearing to a small group of followers.

Later, with the last Gospel to be written - John - we see a very grandiose re-imagining, with the story now including a "zombie invasion" of Jerusalem and an earthquake that rips the veil of the Temple in two. Both of these events are things that should have appeared in other people's historical records regardless of how hard it was to supposedly identify the resurrected Jesus.

Same with the stories earlier in the Gospel narrative of the census and Herod's slaughter of the firstborn sons of Jerusalem. Both of these events somehow failed to catch the attention of those who were chronicling the events of this period.

BTW: why do you think Josephus - who apparently disliked Herod and tried to cast him in a bad light in his works - would have passed up the opportunity to throw shade at him over ordering a mass slaughter of children?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And then there's Prester John and King Arthur.....

And Ragnar Lothbrok....

 

[Left Coast]

But the existence of people in that "mass of pagan personages" is questioned when they have similar evidence to Jesus.

For instance, take Homer: there's plenty of doubt as to whether Homer was a real person. It's just that the existence or non-existence of Homer doesn't usually matter that much; whether he's real or not, somebody wrote the poems attributed to him.

The other thing is that admitting Jesus was a real person in history, even if we grant that for sake of argument, doesn't establish any supernatural claim about him, such as that he rose from the dead or walked on water or magically levitated into the sky.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
In this thread, I will show that claim is false, and that it is both irrational, amd unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
The following is looking at the facts reasonably.

First, it is important to mention the false claims...
The Christ myth theory, also known as the Jesus myth theory, Jesus mythicism, or the Jesus ahistoricity theory, is described by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, as the position that "..the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity." It includes the view that the story of Jesus is largely mythological, and has little basis in historical fact. It is a fringe theory, supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism or cognate disciplines. It is criticised for its outdated reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the mainstream historical view.

There are three strands of mythicism, including the view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul. A second stance is that there was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels. A third view is that no conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him.

This sound very similar to what critics say about most of the characters and events in the Bible.
They claim myths, based on what...
Most Christ mythicists follow a threefold argument: they question the reliability of the Pauline epistles and the Gospels to establish the historicity of Jesus; they note the lack of information on Jesus in non-Christian sources from the first and early second centuries; and they argue that early Christianity had syncretistic and mythological origins, as reflected in both the Pauline epistles and the gospels, with Jesus being a celestial being who was concretized in the Gospels. Therefore, Christianity was not founded on the shared memories of a man, but rather a shared mytheme.

Jesus - The man
What we know : The Facts
The Bible centuries ago, before modern acceptance, stated factually, that a Jewish man called Jesus the Christ / Messiah walked the earth; had followers; was put to death by the Romans.
It was not until recent, that critics of the Bible, finally conceded that there was indeed a man called Jesus Christ, who had followers, and was put to death by the Romans.
Virtually all scholars support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed. Among these scholars was G. A. Wells, a well-known mythicist who changed his mind and ultimately believed in a minimal historical Jesus.

Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed. Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."
In other words, Michael is actually calling out the hypocrites.

The Bible had also stated how Jesus, was put to death, and that was also recently accepted by Bible critics.
Based on both Biblical, and extra-Biblical sources, the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

The lesson that should have been learned...
The Bible was telling the truth... again, even though it was not believed by critics.

The resurrection - Evidence
Past
What we know : The Facts
It was the followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus was risen.
The Bible says Jesus appeared - not to the Romans; not to the Jewish leaders, who wanted him dead, and would certainly have been happy to kill him a second time - but to his faithful followers.
Why did Jesus show himself only to his followers, and not the world? He wanted them to know that he was alive, as he promised he would be.
How did he go, undetected? Surely, if he was risen, people would know, and it would be widely reported. It would make "headline news".
No. Here is why...
(John 20:14-20) 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

Spoiler: Read further...

15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. 19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Luke 24:13-43 ; John 21:1-8

The Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
This is because Jesus was not raised in (with) a physically body, and he did not manifest in the same body he was put to death with.
So people passing Jesus, would not have been "Look! There is that man the Romans crucified."
This is a simple fact made in the Bible. Only Jesus follower had clear proof of Jesus' resurrection.
So only Jesus' followers were in a position to record that fact. No one else knew.

What lesson should people have learned, that keeps repeating itself?
What the Bible says, is true, but people keep denying it until they have no choice but to concede, when it is proven.

Present
What we know : The Facts
The Bible says... (Matthew 9:35-38) 35 And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity. 36 On seeing the crowds, he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”
(Luke 4:43) But he said to them: “I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”

Jesus preached about the kingdom of God, to the cities and villages.
Jesus' followers did the same. Jesus promised to be with his followers in this work, which they were to carry on. Matthew 24:14 ; Matthew 28:18-20

Today, millions of Christian followers of Jesus, are preaching the same message - the kingdom of God, in the same manner that Jesus did, throughout the entire globe, and amazing growth is seen as more disciples are added.

What is the evidence Jesus is with them?
In 33 CE, the evidence was seen in 1) the holy spirit empowering Jesus followers, and 2) the growth in the disciples, and their activity.
Today, the same is seen among his faithful followers.
While it is expected that there will be imitators, and counterfeits, this does not render the evidence void, just as fraud in science does not render the other evidence void.
This is reasonable, is it not?

Unreasonable demands and irrational expectations
Based on the above, it is unreasonable to demand that Jesus should have left any trace outside what we have - the testimony of those who witnessed Jesus alive after his murder.
It is irrational to expect that Jesus should somehow appear to unbelievers to prove to them that he live, and perhaps beg them to accept that fact.

The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:8-10) 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. 9 But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.
In other words, God does not care that the opponents of the Bible, do not believe. He cares only that those who know him, or want to know him, based on the available evidence, are blessed with more - knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
Why?
The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
To the proud person, the things of God are foolishness.

Imagine that you had some pearls of very high value, and you wanted to share them with everyone.
However, some people don't see the value in them. They take them and just throw them away, or pound them to dust, to make some kind of recreational drug. Would you give those people your pearls?
That would be like giving food to people who take it and bury it in the earth. Matthew 7:6

If you could predict what a person would do, you would be selective in whom you give good things to.
This is the way God deals. Because God knows the heart of man, he is selective in who receives truth.
That's reasonable, isn't it?

What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

So let me get this straight: you're using the Christ myth to prove the Christ myth is not true...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The other thing is that admitting Jesus was a real person in history, even if we grant that for sake of argument, doesn't establish any supernatural claim about him, such as that he rose from the dead or walked on water or magically levitated into the sky.

Indeed.

A few weeks ago in another thread, I made a point about how the best explanation for how weird the theology is around Jesus's death is that Jesus was a real historical figure who really did die, and his followers had to rationalize this as best as they could.


... but this still points to Jesus being a mortal human who died.

 

[ChristineM]

Indeed.

A few weeks ago in another thread, I made a point about how the best explanation for how weird the theology is around Jesus's death is that Jesus was a real historical figure who really did die, and his followers had to rationalize this as best as they could.


... but this still points to Jesus being a mortal human who died.

In my thread "My view on Jesus", and others to which this thread is a reaction, i to consider Jesus as existing, just not as described in the bible

 

[Left Coast]

In my thread "My view on Jesus", to which this thread is a reaction

I was assuming it was a reaction to this thread:

Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?

 

[ChristineM]

I was assuming it was a reaction to this thread:

Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?

And others on a similar subject. I will edit mine

 

[viole]

Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
In this thread, I will show that claim is false, and that it is both irrational, amd unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
The following is looking at the facts reasonably.

First, it is important to mention the false claims...
The Christ myth theory, also known as the Jesus myth theory, Jesus mythicism, or the Jesus ahistoricity theory, is described by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, as the position that "..the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity." It includes the view that the story of Jesus is largely mythological, and has little basis in historical fact. It is a fringe theory, supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism or cognate disciplines. It is criticised for its outdated reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the mainstream historical view.

There are three strands of mythicism, including the view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul. A second stance is that there was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels. A third view is that no conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him.

This sound very similar to what critics say about most of the characters and events in the Bible.
They claim myths, based on what...
Most Christ mythicists follow a threefold argument: they question the reliability of the Pauline epistles and the Gospels to establish the historicity of Jesus; they note the lack of information on Jesus in non-Christian sources from the first and early second centuries; and they argue that early Christianity had syncretistic and mythological origins, as reflected in both the Pauline epistles and the gospels, with Jesus being a celestial being who was concretized in the Gospels. Therefore, Christianity was not founded on the shared memories of a man, but rather a shared mytheme.

Jesus - The man
What we know : The Facts
The Bible centuries ago, before modern acceptance, stated factually, that a Jewish man called Jesus the Christ / Messiah walked the earth; had followers; was put to death by the Romans.
It was not until recent, that critics of the Bible, finally conceded that there was indeed a man called Jesus Christ, who had followers, and was put to death by the Romans.
Virtually all scholars support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed. Among these scholars was G. A. Wells, a well-known mythicist who changed his mind and ultimately believed in a minimal historical Jesus.

Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed. Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."
In other words, Michael is actually calling out the hypocrites.

The Bible had also stated how Jesus, was put to death, and that was also recently accepted by Bible critics.
Based on both Biblical, and extra-Biblical sources, the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.

The lesson that should have been learned...
The Bible was telling the truth... again, even though it was not believed by critics.

The resurrection - Evidence
Past
What we know : The Facts
It was the followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus was risen.
The Bible says Jesus appeared - not to the Romans; not to the Jewish leaders, who wanted him dead, and would certainly have been happy to kill him a second time - but to his faithful followers.
Why did Jesus show himself only to his followers, and not the world? He wanted them to know that he was alive, as he promised he would be.
How did he go, undetected? Surely, if he was risen, people would know, and it would be widely reported. It would make "headline news".
No. Here is why...
(John 20:14-20) 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

Spoiler: Read further...

15 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. 19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.

Luke 24:13-43 ; John 21:1-8

The Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
This is because Jesus was not raised in (with) a physically body, and he did not manifest in the same body he was put to death with.
So people passing Jesus, would not have been "Look! There is that man the Romans crucified."
This is a simple fact made in the Bible. Only Jesus follower had clear proof of Jesus' resurrection.
So only Jesus' followers were in a position to record that fact. No one else knew.

What lesson should people have learned, that keeps repeating itself?
What the Bible says, is true, but people keep denying it until they have no choice but to concede, when it is proven.

Present
What we know : The Facts
The Bible says... (Matthew 9:35-38) 35 And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity. 36 On seeing the crowds, he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”
(Luke 4:43) But he said to them: “I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”

Jesus preached about the kingdom of God, to the cities and villages.
Jesus' followers did the same. Jesus promised to be with his followers in this work, which they were to carry on. Matthew 24:14 ; Matthew 28:18-20

Today, millions of Christian followers of Jesus, are preaching the same message - the kingdom of God, in the same manner that Jesus did, throughout the entire globe, and amazing growth is seen as more disciples are added.

What is the evidence Jesus is with them?
In 33 CE, the evidence was seen in 1) the holy spirit empowering Jesus followers, and 2) the growth in the disciples, and their activity.
Today, the same is seen among his faithful followers.
While it is expected that there will be imitators, and counterfeits, this does not render the evidence void, just as fraud in science does not render the other evidence void.
This is reasonable, is it not?

Unreasonable demands and irrational expectations
Based on the above, it is unreasonable to demand that Jesus should have left any trace outside what we have - the testimony of those who witnessed Jesus alive after his murder.
It is irrational to expect that Jesus should somehow appear to unbelievers to prove to them that he live, and perhaps beg them to accept that fact.

The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:8-10) 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. 9 But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.
In other words, God does not care that the opponents of the Bible, do not believe. He cares only that those who know him, or want to know him, based on the available evidence, are blessed with more - knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
Why?
The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
To the proud person, the things of God are foolishness.

Imagine that you had some pearls of very high value, and you wanted to share them with everyone.
However, some people don't see the value in them. They take them and just throw them away, or pound them to dust, to make some kind of recreational drug. Would you give those people your pearls?
That would be like giving food to people who take it and bury it in the earth. Matthew 7:6

If you could predict what a person would do, you would be selective in whom you give good things to.
This is the way God deals. Because God knows the heart of man, he is selective in who receives truth.
That's reasonable, isn't it?

What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?

Your evidence is comparable to the evidence that nose size depends on lies, according to Pinocchio scriptures.

What else do you have apart from self referencing evidence?

Ciao

- viole

 

[stvdv]

Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection

Plenty of evidence. Of course if people look in the wrong place, they won't find it

Some people claiming there is no evidence, really want it to be that way

That's fine with me, it's another kind of Religion (to not believe)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Present
What we know : The Facts
The Bible says... (Matthew 9:35-38) 35 And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity.

If that were true, we ought to see lots of reports from non-Christians attesting to this. Do we?

I'm not talking about people necessarily agreeing that Jesus was genuine, but accounts that, for instance, respond to Jesus's "miracles" by explaining them away as trickery, demonic influence, etc.

 

[Valjean]

Indeed.

A few weeks ago in another thread, I made a point about how the best explanation for how weird the theology is around Jesus's death is that Jesus was a real historical figure who really did die, and his followers had to rationalize this as best as they could.


... but this still points to Jesus being a mortal human who died.

A lot of editing, miscopying and embellishment can be done in 2,000 years. Even with historical figures of recent memory, a lot of stories get made up.

 

[pearl]

It was not that God raised Jesus out of death that Jews could not believe, what they could no believe is that Jesus was their Messiah.

RESURRECTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

A lot of editing, miscopying and embellishment can be done in 2,000 years. Even with historical figures of recent memory, a lot of stories get made up.

There is even an entire parable that is like to have been added. The parable of the adulterous wife is such an example. It is not in the earliest manuscripts. It only appears in later ones. In fact many translations will have a note reporting that it is not found in early sources:

Bible Gateway passage: John 7:53-8:11 - New International Version

 

[MatthewA]

I believe that there are many evidences, though can not provide them in front of you to really see and observe.

There are many evidences, but however it takes faith to trust in the assurance of the things which are not seen :

Jesus Christ promises many things such as eternal life, holy spirit, communication with God (Christian God of the Bible), saved to the kingdom of God, being able to become a Child of God, growing in spiritual knowledge, and growing in the wisdom of God, God changes the life of a believer; from the old person they once were; into a new person in Christ; whom resides in believers and produces in the believer fruits of love.

Faith: Hebrews 11: 1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

There are many promises, in the truth of the Gospel of Christ Jesus; which are found in the Holy Bible.

Though there is a very real and extensive undeniable observable facts of history in the bible; some believe that Jesus existed, some believe that Jesus Christ never existed at all. The only historical record we have about Jesus Christ is the bible; and it takes faith to believe in the things He has to offer, and not everyone understand or fully grasp what God has to offer until they go see what is offered to a believer.

It is all a choice which is totally up to you: You can believe or not it: It is up to you to decide. : Just desire to provide this information which comes from the bible. Take care you, and your family.