The South African elephant in the room ...

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Times of Israel (and damn near everybody else) is reporting that AOC tweets, 'Apartheid states aren't democracies'.

I would benefit from an informed and civil discussion on Israel and the apartheid analogy.

 

[rosends]

Here are some resources

Israel and the apartheid analogy - Wikipedia.

Opinion | Why Israel Is Nothing Like Apartheid South Africa (Published 2017)

Opinion | Appropriating ‘Apartheid’ to Bash Israel

Comparing Israel to Afrikaner-ruled South Africa – Stop BDS

NGO Apartheid State Campaign: Deliberately Immoral or Intellectually Lazy? » ngomonitor

Lost in the blur of slogans

'Why depict Israel as a chamber of horrors like no other in the world?'

but these are just the voices of South Africans and Arabs so we should probably ask others who know more.

 

[PureX]

Here are some resources

Israel and the apartheid analogy - Wikipedia.

Opinion | Why Israel Is Nothing Like Apartheid South Africa (Published 2017)

Opinion | Appropriating ‘Apartheid’ to Bash Israel

Comparing Israel to Afrikaner-ruled South Africa – Stop BDS

NGO Apartheid State Campaign: Deliberately Immoral or Intellectually Lazy? » ngomonitor

Lost in the blur of slogans

'Why depict Israel as a chamber of horrors like no other in the world?'

but these are just the voices of South Africans and Arabs so we should probably ask others who know more.

Right, like FOX commentators. They seem to know everything about everything everywhere in the world. And are happy to correct our ignorance.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Here are some resources

Thank you.

NGO Apartheid State Campaign: Deliberately Immoral or Intellectually Lazy? » ngomonito

I found this relevant - particularly the sections:

1. Legal Prohibition of Apartheid,
2. Customary Law, and
3. Treaty Law.

but these are just the voices of South Africans and Arabs so we should probably ask others who know more.

Was this in reference to Comments by South Africans?

 

[PureX]

We can call it 'apartheid' if we want to, but what is currently happening is ethnic cleansing. It hasn't reached the level of actual death camps, yet, but it's not far from it. Palestinians are being killed, driven from their homes, and everything they own stolen or destroyed. And because the U.S. government has been locked in a massive bribery ring with the Israeli government for many decades, we will do nothing, and say nothing, about any of it.

 

[Kooky]

We can call it 'apartheid' if we want to, but what is currently happening is ethnic cleansing. It hasn't reached the level of actual death camps, yet, but it's not far from it. Palestinians are being killed, driven from their homes, and everything they own stolen or destroyed. And because the U.S. government has been locked in a massive bribery ring with the Israeli government for many decades, we will do nothing, and say nothing, about any of it.

To my eyes, the current happenings to indeed resemble the Yugoslavian conflict more closely than the apartheid regime.

 

[rosends]

We can call it 'apartheid' if we want to, but what is currently happening is ethnic cleansing. It hasn't reached the level of actual death camps, yet, but it's not far from it. Palestinians are being killed, driven from their homes, and everything they own stolen or destroyed. And because the U.S. government has been locked in a massive bribery ring with the Israeli government for many decades, we will do nothing, and say nothing, about any of it.

worst. ethnic cleansing. ever
Arab Population Statistics Debunk Lie of ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ of Palestinians

 

[rosends]

Was this in reference to Comments by South Africans?

it wasn't in reference to anything. It is just a collection of voices who know better than I do and who give facts and figures explaining why the analogy is incorrect. The word is being used in a loose and lazy sense, applied to general policies, ignoring the legal specifics.

From the “River to the Sea”: B’Tselem’s Demonization Crosses the Line » ngomonitor

 

[rosends]

To present those articles as 'the voices of South Africans and Arabs' instead of some South African and Arab voices are super misleading.
The African National Congress openly supports the BDS movement, perhaps they would be more indicative of the 'South African' voice than the stuff you found on stopbds.org

The parallels between Israel and the South African situation is not a new comparison, while Mandela never used the word apartheid to refer to Israel, he compared the situations extensively and spoke about how the apartheid regime worked closely with Israel. Some quotes from him:
'We identify with the PLO because just like ourselves they are fighting for the right of self-determination'
'Our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.'

Here are articles by two of Mandela's grandchildren using the term Apartheid to describe Israel:
Zwelivelile Mandela says Israeli apartheid is the worst form of apartheid ever witnessed.
My grandfather Nelson Mandela fought apartheid. I see parallels with Israel

OK, so the various voices I presented are only some of them. Of course, those "some of them" do have the experience and education to speak to the issue. But hey, if others use the term and see parallels, then it must be true.

 

[PureX]

worst. ethnic cleansing. ever
Arab Population Statistics Debunk Lie of ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ of Palestinians

"Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research shows that since 2000 there has been a 10% increase in the proportion of the Arab population in Jerusalem"

Guess who runs this "Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research" ... I'm sure all those Jews aren't at all biased, though!

So there has been an "Arab population increase" IN JERUSALEM? And that's over 20 years! And an increase of what? Domestic servants? Certainly not of property owners, or business operators. And what does any of this have to do with what's going on all across the rest of the country?

 

[epronovost]

worst. ethnic cleansing. ever
Arab Population Statistics Debunk Lie of ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ of Palestinians

Considering that during the same time the population of Gaza has increased of about 30% yeah it does look like there is some ethnic cleansing going on else the rate of growth would be much larger. The birthrates in Palestinian territories are the 13th largest in the world. There lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

[rosends]

"Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research shows that since 2000 there has been a 10% increase in the proportion of the Arab population in Jerusalem"

Guess who runs this "Jerusalem Institute for Policy Research" ... I'm sure all those Jews aren't at all biased, though!

So there has been an "Arab population increase" IN JERUSALEM? And that's over 20 years! And an increase of what? Domestic servants? Certainly not of property owners, or business operators. And what does any of this have to do with what's going on all across the rest of the country?

um...
"Surprisingly, despite the Palestinian propaganda pushed by PA leaders and their supporters that Israel is chasing Arabs out of the city, the Palestinian Authority’s own office of statistics confirms the Israeli numbers.

The Palestine Central Bureau of Statics in Ramallah (PCBS) reported that in 2010 there were 385,669 Arabs in Jerusalem, and the latest PCBS report said the estimated population in Jerusalem for December, 2020 is 466,750 – amounting to a whopping 21% overall increase in the past decade."

The PA agrees. Population is INCREASING. So you invent "domestic servants" because the earlier claim fails. Got it.

 

[rosends]

Considering that during the same time the population of Gaza has increased of about 30% yeah it does look like there is some ethnic cleansing going on else the rate of growth would be much larger. The birthrates in Palestinian territories are the 13th largest in the world. There lies, damn lies and statistics.

So it is ethnic cleansing because one group isn't increasing as much as another group? That's an interesting and new definition of ethnic cleansing you have there.

 

[epronovost]

So it is ethnic cleansing because one group isn't increasing as much as another group? That's an interesting and new definition of ethnic cleansing you have there.

No, it's ethnic cleansing when a group is systematically expulsed from a territory on the basis of their ethnic group and the proof that such a thing is happening in Jerusalem is the stunted growth of its Arab population (amongst other things). That's how a slow and methodical ethnic cleansing looks like.

 

[rosends]

No, it's ethnic cleansing when a group is systematically expulsed from a territory on the basis of their ethnic group and the proof that such a thing is happening in Jerusalem is the stunted growth of its Arab population (amongst other things). That's how a slow and methodical ethnic cleansing looks like.

Actually, an ethnic cleansing would show a reduction in population over time. Since what you have here is an increase, you don't have any ethnic cleansing. The UNCE definition requires a reduction in population.

 

[rosends]

Congratulations, you picked the definition you needed to deny ethnic cleansing.

Actually, I just used the one that the UN uses. Which definition do you prefer?

 

[epronovost]

Actually, an ethnic cleansing would show a reduction in population over time. Since what you have here is an increase, you don't have any ethnic cleansing. The UNCE definition requires a reduction in population.

There is not such mention in the link you provided. In fact the actions of Israel in East Jerusalem do fall under the two definitions mentioned in the link your provided. Israel is using force and intimidation to remove a group of person from an area. There is no mention that there must be a net reduction on population for a policy to be a form of ethnic cleansing especially when the avowed goal of the policies in place is to expulse the members of an ethnic group to take control of their territory. Did you read your own link? Confinement to a ghetto without even reducing the population is also a form of ethnic cleansing btw.

 

[rosends]

There is not such mention in the link you provided. In fact the actions of Israel in East Jerusalem do fall under the two definitions mentioned in the link your provided. Israel is using force and intimidation to remove a group of person from an area. There is no mention that there must be a net reduction on population for a policy to be a form of ethnic cleansing especially when the avowed goal of the policies in place is to expulse the members of an ethnic group to take control of their territory. Did you read your own link? Confinement to a ghetto without even reducing the population is also a form of ethnic cleansing btw.

Except that they aren't and there is no removal of the group from the area. There is an increase of the group in the area. Removal would mean a reduction. And there is no confinement to a ghetto, except in the sense of the creation of "zones" as per the Oslo agreement. Are you claiming that the Oslo agreement is a mechanism for ethnic cleansing?

 

[epronovost]

Except that they aren't and there is no removal of the group from the area. There is an increase of the group in the area. Removal would mean a reduction.

No removal means forcing people out against there will by the use of force and intimidation. Israel is doing this as we speak. It doesn't mean a net reduction of population number over period of 20 years.

And there is no confinement to a ghetto, except in the sense of the creation of "zones" as per the Oslo agreement. Are you claiming that the Oslo agreement is a mechanism for ethnic cleansing?

The Oslo agreement didn't include a blockade on Gaza since 2007. Without it, Gaza would indeed not be a ghetto. Note that seizing the most valuable lands and property of the West Bank by Israel in complete breach of the Oslo agreements is transforming the remaining Palestinian territories into ghettos too.

 

[rosends]

No removal means forcing people out against there will by the use of force and intimidation. Israel is doing this as we speak. It doesn't mean a net reduction of population number over period of 20 years.

So it is removal but more people live there. Got it. Now were you talking about the removal of 4 families who refuse to pay rent or the court decisions to protect the rights of the other 20+ families who live there but are of the same ethnic group?

The Oslo agreement didn't include a blockade on Gaza since 2007. Without it, Gaza would indeed not be a ghetto. Note that seizing the most valuable lands and property of the West Bank by Israel in complete breach of the Oslo agreements is transforming the remaining Palestinian territories into ghettos too.

A blockade? Oh you mean the Israeli/Egyptian border through which Israel sends humanitarian aid (and this also explains all the rockets into Egypt!) and which has 5 star hotels, resorts and mansions for the elite who embezzle money and destroyed the infrastructure at the expense of their own people. I'm glad you are clarifying. Maybe you mean the 2005 forcible removal of all Jews from Gaza or the Jews' being barred from certain areas even today. That sounds like ethnic cleansing, right?