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Landlords upset ...

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What the government is doing is addressing a market failure.

To a tenant, a rental property represents basic needs: home and shelter.

To a landlord, a rental property represents return on an investment portfolio.

These concerns do not have the same weight.

Without intervention, we would not have had "free market" conditions anyway. When your decision to withdraw from a transaction would mean homelessness for you and your family, your decision to enter into the transaction can't reasonably be said to be "free." Taking away some - but certainly not all - power from landlords brings the market equilibrium back closer to hypothetical actual free market conditions.
Why.doesn't.government.just.pay.the.rent?
Because.it.can.force.landlords.to.provide.free.housing.

Hey.food.is.even.more.essential.than.an.apartment.
Why.not.force.grocers.to.provide.free.food?
After.all.those.evil.grocers.are.just.looking.for.a.return.
on.investment...a.need.outweighed.by.the.need.to.eat.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Why.doesn't.government.just.pay.the.rent?
Because.it.can.force.landlords.to.provide.free.housing.

Hey.food.is.even.more.essential.than.an.apartment.
Why.not.force.grocers.to.provide.free.food?
After.all.those.evil.grocers.are.just.looking.for.a.return.
on.investment...a.need.outweighed.by.the.need.to.eat.
Beat me to it.
One wonders why the grocery stores get, how was it put, "special treatment" over land lords....
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Beat me to it.
One wonders why the grocery stores get, how was it put, "special treatment" over land lords....
Liberals.are.trained.to.see.landlords.as.evil.capitalists.who.
"charge.more.than.it.costs!",are.all.rich,&,provide.no.goods.
or.service. So,anything.unjustly.taken.from.them.is.good.
If.grocers.gave.away.food,they'couldn't.buy.more...But.
giving.away.housing.&.utilities.can,happen.even.if.the.
landlord.goes.broke.cuz.the.home.remains.And.utilitiy.
companies.must.provide.utilities.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Why.doesn't.government.just.pay.the.rent?
Because.it.can.force.landlords.to.provide.free.housing.

Hey.food.is.even.more.essential.than.an.apartment.
Why.not.force.grocers.to.provide.free.food?
After.all.those.evil.grocers.are.just.looking.for.a.return.
on.investment...a.need.outweighed.by.the.need.to.eat.
Because market forces work much better with food. We generally have actual free choice when it comes to groceries.

If I usually shop at store X but store Y has a sale on bread, I don't need to break my arrangement with store X (at my cost); I just go and shop at store Y without any penalty. I can even go back to store X next week... again, without any penalty or extra cost.

Also, the landlord still owns the asset. Even if a tenant is living rent-free temporarily, the landlord still owns the building and can still look forward to the day that they sell it at a profit (which usually makes up a significant part of the landlord's expected ROI).

To make an analogy with equities: a tenant living rent-free would be like dealing with a dividend cut for a while (which happens). A shopper getting groceries for free would be like confiscating shares.


Edit: so when tenants can:

  • Duck out on their lease without any penalty, moving cost, or inconvenience (including non-monetary penalties, like having to switch their kids' schools),
  • Go live somewhere else for a few weeks because it's cheaper, AND
  • Move back to a guaranteed vacancy in their old apartment and get the same deal they had before (or better)
... then a comparison to groceries would be reasonable.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The government could buy or build housing and offer it to renters, either free of charge or at substantially reduced rates. Just like government pays for police departments, fire departments, public sidewalks, public education, and the like, they can pay for housing.
Hang on: doesn't government do this where you are?

A quick googling suggests to me that ~20% of the rental units in the Toronto area are public housing.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hang on: doesn't government do this where you are?

A quick googling suggests to me that ~20% of the rental units in the Toronto area are public housing.

They do, but it's clearly not enough. I know there are a few city-owned properties for low income renters, but I also understand that a lot of people are on waiting lists for Section 8 housing.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They.could.indeed.
And.they.already.do.
(Note:space.bar.not.working.)
But.it's.much.cheaper.to.force.landlords.to.do.it.for.free.
Not.a.sutainable.model.though...as.landlords.run.out.of.
money.for.utilities.&.maintenance.&.taxes.

Most of the places in my area have the tenants paying the utilities. Maintenance seems to vary from place to place. Some places are pretty rundown and tenants complain of landlords not doing needed repairs. Government has people on their payroll already who can do landscaping and maintenance.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Those people who are refusing to pay their rent even though they could are just doing what they believe they should, for themselves, in a society and culture that has justified doing things just for ourselves, for generations. And when everyone is just looking out for themselves, there are bound to be a great many victims of all that selfishness.
Imo, people cannot blame society for their individual decision not to pay rent or for being selfish because everyone has free will. We are all accountable for our own actions. The judge dies not put society on trial.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Because market forces work much better with food. We generally have actual free choice when it comes to groceries.
That's.odd....some.fellow.lefties.were.just.telling.me.that.
Walmart.has.eliminated.much.choice.&.that.the.poor.have.
no.grocery.stores.near.them.

As.for.choice.&.market.forces...you're.wrong...Landlords.
compete.with.each.other...Prices.rise.&.fall.with.market.
&.costs,eg,utilities,property.taxes,maintenance,etc.
Perhaps.landlords.should.get.those.things.for.free.
Maintenance.workers.should.work.for.free.too.
demand.
If I usually shop at store X but store Y has a sale on bread, I don't need to break my arrangement with store X (at my cost); I just go and shop at store Y without any penalty. I can even go back to store X next week... again, without any penalty or extra cost.
The.rental.market.works.the.same.way...If.you.want.no.obligation,
that.option.exists.in.the.short.term.rental.market...One.typically.
pays.more.for.this.because.turnover.is.costly....Longer.leases.
benefit.both.landlord.&.tenant.in.many.many.cases.
Also, the landlord still owns the asset. Even if a tenant is living rent-free temporarily, the landlord still owns the building and can still look forward to the day that they sell it at a profit (which usually makes up a significant part of the landlord's expected ROI).
Rental.properties.have.operating.costs....If.the.landlord.doesn't
recover.those.capital.gains.don't.offset.them...And.what.if.the.
landlord.doesn't.want.to.sell.
Clearly,someone.has.no.experience.with.the.economics.of.it.
To make an analogy with equities: a tenant living rent-free would be like dealing with a dividend cut for a while (which happens). A shopper getting groceries for free would be like confiscating shares.
Who.pays.for.insurance.property.taxes,maintenance.replacements,
depreciation,&.utilities?..And.I.suppose.you.don't.believe.landlords.
are.entitled.to.be.able.to.make.loan.payments,eh.
Edit: so when tenants can:

  • Duck out on their lease without any penalty, moving cost, or inconvenience (including non-monetary penalties, like having to switch their kids' schools),
  • Go live somewhere else for a few weeks because it's cheaper, AND
  • Move back to a guaranteed vacancy in their old apartment and get the same deal they had before (or better)
... then a comparison to groceries would be reasonable.
But.the.grocer.gets.to.keep.the.building...The.farmer.gets.to.keep.
the.land.used.for.crops....The.grocer.&.farmer.can.make.their.money
by.selling.their.properties...Why.should.anyone.pay.for.groceries?

Hey.if.there's.no.profit.in.operating.rental.property....in.fact.you'd
want.an.operating.loss....why.would.the.price.of.an.unproductive.
asset.increase.at.all?...Why.build.anything.in.the.first.place.eh.
 
Last edited:

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Most of the places in my area have the tenants paying the utilities. Maintenance seems to vary from place to place. Some places are pretty rundown and tenants complain of landlords not doing needed repairs. Government has people on their payroll already who can do landscaping and maintenance.
Utilities.vary,depending.upon.the.kind.of.unit.
Tenants.do.like.to.complain.
But.nontheless,landlords.spend.$.on.maintenance.
BTW,tenants.often.destroy.places,abuse.staff,&
steal.from.the.property....so,they've.plenty.of.sins.too.

If.the.landlord.can't.pay.property.taxes,watch.what.
happens.when.local.government.takes.the.property.
&.runs.it...things.get.far.worse.for.tenants.&.property.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey.if.there's.no.profit.in.operating.rental.property....in.fact.you'd
want.an.operating.loss....why.would.the.price.of.an.unproductive.
asset.increase.at.all?...Why.build.anything.in.the.first.place.eh.

There's no profit in running police departments, yet we somehow do that anyway. There's no profit in running a military (although they probably should show a profit, considering the potential for plunder and booty).

There's no profit in public roads or public schools, yet we have them because we need them. Even private sector businesses benefit from having these things (especially the military).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There's no profit in running police departments, yet we somehow do that anyway.
Taxpayers pay for cops.
They don't pay landlords.
In fact, landlords pay property & income taxes.
Police departments don't.
Also, landlords can't stop drivers, & confiscate cars & money....or write tickets.
There's no profit in running a military (although they probably should show a profit, considering the potential for plunder and booty).
Again, taxpayers.
There's no profit in public roads or public schools, yet we have them because we need them. Even private sector businesses benefit from having these things (especially the military).
Are you really saying that because police & military
don't charge for services, landlords shouldn't either?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Taxpayers pay for cops.
They don't pay landlords.
In fact, landlords pay property & income taxes.
Police departments don't.
Also, landlords can't stop drivers, & confiscate cars & money....or write tickets.

Again, taxpayers.

Are you really saying that because police & military
don't charge for services, landlords shouldn't either?

No, I'm saying that the government can provide those services, which would be paid for by the taxpayers. I never said the landlords would have to work for free. After the government buys up all the rental property, the landlords could probably be hired on as government employees to oversee the properties. They could be paid just as police officers and military personnel are paid.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, I'm saying that the government can provide those services, which would be paid for by the taxpayers. I never said the landlords would have to work for free. After the government buys up all the rental property, the landlords could probably be hired on as government employees to oversee the properties. They could be paid just as police officers and military personnel are paid.
So you're just advocating government taking over rental housing, eh.
Hah! And tenants think they have it bad now.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Liberals.are.trained.to.see.landlords.as.evil.capitalists.who.
"charge.more.than.it.costs!",are.all.rich,&,provide.no.goods.
or.service. So,anything.unjustly.taken.from.them.is.good.
If.grocers.gave.away.food,they'couldn't.buy.more...But.
giving.away.housing.&.utilities.can,happen.even.if.the.
landlord.goes.broke.cuz.the.home.remains.And.utilitiy.
companies.must.provide.utilities.
We all know that landlords are evil heartless monsters. Do you need evidence? Okay! You asked for it:
'


Oh rats! Those are mortgages. Never mind.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So you're just advocating government taking over rental housing, eh.
Hah! And tenants think they have it bad now.

The city manages a few properties here. They're not luxury palaces or anything, but they're not bad.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We all know that landlords are evil heartless monsters. Do you need evidence? Okay! You asked for it:
'


Oh rats! Those are mortgages. Never mind.

It's an old trope.

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1656303_381280968688825_791567085470516620_n.jpg
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Imo, people cannot blame society for their individual decision not to pay rent or for being selfish because everyone has free will. We are all accountable for our own actions. The judge dies not put society on trial.
Yes, but we are a social species. We need each other to live, and we will (even must) alter our behaviors accordingly. When our society falls into the abyss of greed and ignorance and the sickness of abuse, so do we. Because we know we have to go along to get along.
 
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