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Compressed Air Grid 'Battery'

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There is a LOT of work being done on eliminating fossil fuels from the electricity generation process. This is one example which is interesting. And the end of the article is spot on - we need different solutions to energy storage for differing circumstances.

This Compressed Air Grid 'Battery' Is an Energy Storage Game Changer

Extra energy from the grid runs an air compressor, and the compressed air is stored in the plant. Later, when energy is needed, the compressed air then runs a power-generating turbine. The facility also stores heat from the air to help smooth the turbine process later on.

While the efficiency of similar systems has hovered around 40 to 50 percent, the new system from Hydrostor, a major global leader in building hydroelectric storage, reportedly reaches 60 percent, according to Quartz.
...
The first of Hydrostor’s two plants is set to open in 2026, and the company says its system will last for about 50 years—making it a lot longer-lived than almost any energy storage of its kind. The near future of energy is likely made of a dozen different solutions that are all suited to different environments and situations, so adding compressed air to the portfolio simply makes sense.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There is a LOT of work being done on eliminating fossil fuels from the electricity generation process. This is one example which is interesting. And the end of the article is spot on - we need different solutions to energy storage for differing circumstances.

This Compressed Air Grid 'Battery' Is an Energy Storage Game Changer

Extra energy from the grid runs an air compressor, and the compressed air is stored in the plant. Later, when energy is needed, the compressed air then runs a power-generating turbine. The facility also stores heat from the air to help smooth the turbine process later on.

While the efficiency of similar systems has hovered around 40 to 50 percent, the new system from Hydrostor, a major global leader in building hydroelectric storage, reportedly reaches 60 percent, according to Quartz.
...
The first of Hydrostor’s two plants is set to open in 2026, and the company says its system will last for about 50 years—making it a lot longer-lived than almost any energy storage of its kind. The near future of energy is likely made of a dozen different solutions that are all suited to different environments and situations, so adding compressed air to the portfolio simply makes sense.
Soo....

Where does the additional energy come from to compress the air sufficiently enough to produce adequate energy? The generators??, Also I'm sure the compressed air dosent last very long before it needs enough compression again.

I don't see how 'extra' energy can ever be made in the first place. Did you ever see an electrical generator perform under load?

I'll pass on the stock.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Soo....

Where does the additional energy come from to compress the air sufficiently enough to produce adequate energy? The generators??, Also I'm sure the compressed air dosent last very long before it needs enough compression again.

I don't see how 'extra' energy can ever be made in the first place. Did you ever see an electrical generator perform under load?

I'll pass on the stock.

I expect that solar power is the source.

As far as the technology goes, there are several companies working on it Gigawatt-scale compressed air: World’s largest non-hydro energy-storage projects announced | Recharge

How long it lasts of course depends on the volume to be used and how much the air is compressed. It's basic engineering.

Toronto-based Hydrostor is working with experienced US renewables developer Pattern Energy and French infrastructure investment giant Meridiam on the 500MW Rosamond project in Kern County, near Los Angeles, which would have a storage capacity of 4-6GWh.

Have you ever seen a solar power installation "under load"? They are now cheap sources of energy, I believe the cheapest or close to it in many places.

As far as investing goes, it's too new for me to try to pick a winner.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Soo....

Where does the additional energy come from to compress the air sufficiently enough to produce adequate energy? The generators??, Also I'm sure the compressed air dosent last very long before it needs enough compression again.

I don't see how 'extra' energy can ever be made in the first place. Did you ever see an electrical generator perform under load?

I'll pass on the stock.
Let's say that your wind & solar generators are producing more
power than can be used. If it's stored & can be recovered later,
it's not wasted. How to save it? Compressed air stores energy,
& can be used to generate power. This system uses underground
storage, which cuts material costs. Crucial to improving efficiency
is capturing the heat generated during compression, & using it
during generation. I'm curious how this is achieved. The article
didn't say anything about this.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's sad how "green energy" is so clearly the way the winds are shifting that it's undeniable, but so many want to refuse this to the point they'd let America fall behind the nations who are investing in the future.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Compressed air stores energy,
& can be used to generate power.
For all the cleaning I've done with compressed air, especially around heat sinks with fan blades that get spun around, I'm perplexed energy from such a thing like compressed air isn't something I've thought of.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Soo....

Where does the additional energy come from to compress the air sufficiently enough to produce adequate energy? The generators??, Also I'm sure the compressed air dosent last very long before it needs enough compression again.

I don't see how 'extra' energy can ever be made in the first place. Did you ever see an electrical generator perform under load?

I'll pass on the stock.
The air does not make extra energy. At times various renewable energy sources will make more energy than needed. That is the "extra energy". If there is no way to store that energy it goes to waste. Using this sort of set up they could save up to 60% of that extra energy.

Not perfect but better than letting it go.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's say that your wind & solar generators are producing more
power than can be used. If it's stored & can be recovered later,
it's not wasted. How to save it? Compressed air stores energy,
& can be used to generate power. This system uses underground
storage, which cuts material costs. Crucial to improving efficiency
is capturing the heat generated during compression, & using it
during generation. I'm curious how this is achieved. The article
didn't say anything about this.
Maybe they will store the compressed gas in a gigantic vacuum sealed Thermos bottle, so it will not lose much heat for up to 48 hours. Possibly they can also keep some soup warm that way. Another possibility is to store the compressed gas near a nuclear power source, to keep it warm. It may even get warmer that way, raising the pressure -- giving them a break-even power source. They may also pump it down into a storage chamber closer to the Earth's mantle, to keep it warm there. Another idea is to put it into eggs and have momma birds sit on them.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Maybe they will store the compressed gas in a gigantic vacuum sealed Thermos bottle, so it will not lose much heat for up to 48 hours. Possibly they can also keep some soup warm that way. Another possibility is to store the compressed gas near a nuclear power source, to keep it warm. It may even get warmer that way, raising the pressure -- giving them a break-even power source. They may also pump it down into a storage chamber closer to the Earth's mantle, to keep it warm there. Another idea is to put it into eggs and have momma birds sit on them.
Another approach is to use the heat for some other process,
rather than storing it. "Cogeneration" is more than a century old.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
It's sad how "green energy" is so clearly the way the winds are shifting that it's undeniable, but so many want to refuse this to the point they'd let America fall behind the nations who are investing in the future.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that between 140,000 and 500,000 bird die colliding into wind turbine each year.
The Realities of Bird and Bat Deaths by Wind Turbines | REVE News of the wind sector in Spain and in the world.


My question is if they can avoid a tree, and tree limbs waving about in the wind, why can't they avoid the turbines?

Now one may say because of the turning blade's. However most I've seen and I've seen many, the blade's turn slow. I actually passed hundreds last week north and south of Peoria Illinois.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that between 140,000 and 500,000 bird die colliding into wind turbine each year.
The Realities of Bird and Bat Deaths by Wind Turbines | REVE News of the wind sector in Spain and in the world.


My question is if they can avoid a tree, and tree limbs waving about in the wind, why can't they avoid the turbines?

Now one may say because of the turning blade's. However most I've seen and I've seen many, the blade's turn slow. I actually passed hundreds last week north and south of Peoria Illinois.
The blade RPM is slow, but the tip speed is fast.
Birds don't see'm coming at them from a right
angle at over 100 mph.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The blade RPM is slow, but the tip speed is fast.
Birds don't see'm coming at them from a right
angle at over 100 mph.

I was actually looking that up as you posted.

How fast do wind turbines spin? The speed of the wind turbine depends on how fast the wind is blowing. Most wind turbines are turning at about 10 to 20 rpm. When wind speeds are around 12-15 mph the tip of the blades are turning at about 120 mph. At higher wind speeds the tips of the blades can get up to around 180 mph!

How Fast Do Wind Turbines Spin? (Not As Slow As They Look) - DBLDKR
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that between 140,000 and 500,000 bird die colliding into wind turbine each year.
The Realities of Bird and Bat Deaths by Wind Turbines | REVE News of the wind sector in Spain and in the world.


My question is if they can avoid a tree, and tree limbs waving about in the wind, why can't they avoid the turbines?

Now one may say because of the turning blade's. However most I've seen and I've seen many, the blade's turn slow. I actually passed hundreds last week north and south of Peoria Illinois.
That's quite a silly issue people brought up, because they'll mention that and ignore that lots of other things also kill birds.
Bird–skyscraper collisions - Wikipedia
Bird–skyscraper collisions are a problem in urban areas. Several major cities like Toronto in Canada and New York City in the United States have programs to abate this, such as Toronto's Fatal Light Awareness Program (FLAP) and New York City's Lights Out New York, a program of New York City Audubon an environmental organization. According to FLAP, between one and nine million birds die each year in the city from hitting skyscrapers due to mistaking reflective windows for open sky, or being drawn to lights at night.[1]

According to a 2014 article in the ornithological journal Condor, an estimated 365 million to 988 million birds die each year by colliding into buildings in the United States.[2]
U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - Migratory Bird Program | Conserving America's Birds
It is currently estimated that between 8 million and 57 million birds are killed in the United States annually from collisions with electric utility lines. Combined with bird impacts from electrocutions, bird mortalities resulting from electric utility lines have been a long-standing bird conservation issue. Electric utility infrastructure continues to increase; resolving conflicts between birds and power lines continues to be an important focus of bird conservation efforts both in the U.S. and around the globe.
An Estimate of Avian Mortality at Communication Towers in the United States and Canada
The resulting estimate of mortality at towers is 6.8 million birds per year in the United States and Canada.
This was never an issue or thought of by many until people brought it up to prevent wind turbines from going up.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
That's quite a silly issue people brought up, because they'll mention that and ignore that lots of other things also kill birds.
Bird–skyscraper collisions - Wikipedia

U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service - Migratory Bird Program | Conserving America's Birds

An Estimate of Avian Mortality at Communication Towers in the United States and Canada

This was never an issue or thought of by many until people brought it up to prevent wind turbines from going up.

Yeah cats kill way way more birds. Not to even mention outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild and continue to adversely impact a wide variety of other species.

Cats and Birds | American Bird Conservancy.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Yeah cats kill way way more birds. Not to even mention outdoor domestic cats are a recognized threat to global biodiversity. Cats have contributed to the extinction of 63 species of birds, mammals, and reptiles in the wild and continue to adversely impact a wide variety of other species.

Cats and Birds | American Bird Conservancy.
I came across this when I was gathering the links I used in my previous post:
Do We Really Know That Cats Kill By The Billions? Not So Fast
The study at issue is a meta-analysis, an overarching review that aggregates data from previously published sources. The accuracy of meta-studies in health and medicine raises some concern, and it's easy to see why: for a meta-analysis to be solid, wise choices must be made among the available sources of information, and results that may vary wildly must be weighed fairly.

In the Nature Communications study, authors Scott R. Loss, Tom Will, and Peter P. Marra needed to incorporate into their model the number of "un-owned cats" (such as stray, feral, and barn cats) in the U.S. As they note in an appendix to the article, "no empirically driven estimate of un-owned cat abundance exists for the contiguous U.S." Estimates that are available range from 20-120 million, with 60-100 million being the most commonly cited. In response to this huge uncertainty in the numbers, they performed mathematical calculations using what they feel to be a conservative figure (specifically, they "defined a uniform distribution with minimum and maximum of 30 and 80 million, respectively.")

At this juncture, the authors note that local analyses of cat numbers are "often conducted in areas with above average density." That is an obvious problem, yet when they estimated the proportion of owned cats with access to the outdoors (and thus to hunting), of eight sources of information, "three [were] based on nationwide pet-owner surveys and five based on research in individual study areas." Are the local studies representative of the national situation? For that matter, are the different owner surveys administered in a consistent enough manner to allow them to be aggregated?
....
Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society of the United States, had this to say in response to the study: "It's virtually impossible to determine how many cats live outside, or how many spend some portion of the day outside. Loss, Will, and Marra have thrown out a provocative number for cat predation totals, and their piece has been published in a highly credible publication, but they admit the study has many deficiencies. We don't quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big, but the numbers are informed guesswork."

If even animal advocates admit "the impact is big," why do the specific numbers matter so much? Because when people start thinking of cats primarily as murderers, it then becomes the cats' lives that may be seriously endangered. Of concern are not only extremists like the man in New Zealand who recently suggested a ban on pet cats; cat advocate organization Alley Cat Allies says that the study is so "biased" that it amounts to an invitation to "ramp up the mass killings of outdoor cats."
And, indeed, I saw some websites using that study to ask if cats should be killed off.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Facebook-ba850d.png
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There is a gas field near my home. When it is depleted, which is expected to be soon, it will become an air pressure storage. Plans exist for some years now.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
It's amazing to think those are mini-lions and tigers and cheetahs and cougars. And they'll show they think they're bigger than lions and some of the most utterly fearless animals out there. Not many at all would dare to take a swipe at a bear or an alligator. And, quite clearly, even when their claws are little those claws hurt and sting some of the largest critters out there.
(Maybe you should bring a cat to your next rumble with @Wu Wei and send him running?)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's amazing to think those are mini-lions and tigers and cheetahs and cougars. And they'll show they think they're bigger than lions and some of the most utterly fearless animals out there. Not many at all would dare to take a swipe at a bear or an alligator. And, quite clearly, even when their claws are little those claws hurt and sting some of the largest critters out there.
(Maybe you should bring a cat to your next rumble with @Wu Wei and send him running?)
Rb83302e3ccdd3e07859ec0dc6671c6d4
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
It's amazing to think those are mini-lions and tigers and cheetahs and cougars. And they'll show they think they're bigger than lions and some of the most utterly fearless animals out there. Not many at all would dare to take a swipe at a bear or an alligator. And, quite clearly, even when their claws are little those claws hurt and sting some of the largest critters out there.
(Maybe you should bring a cat to your next rumble with @Wu Wei and send him running?)

Ever see a kodiak run from a cat...you see black bears run....but they're just an appetizer to kodiak

Note: alligators in the south try to attract cats........ and it ain't to make friends.....
 
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