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All roads lead to the same God ?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
However this is not possible according to the bible.
Do you understand that the Bible was not intended to be applied for all time?
So 'according to the Bible' is a moot point since God has revealed more scriptures since the Bible was written, and those scriptures supersede the Bible scriptures. It really is no different from the New Testament superseding the Old Testament because Jesus came with a new revelation from God and what Jesus revealed superseded whatever Moses had revealed during His dispensation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes thats my point . All religions are contradicting each other on who God is , what he has done and how salvation is appropriated. They are completely incompatible. You cannot be a 'Muslim Christian ' and be consistent, or logical.
The reason they contradict each other is because more was revealed by God in each additional revelation which cannot fit with the older religions since you cannot put new wine into old wine sacs as Jesus said.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
///All supernatural beings, gods included, are human constructs/// Thats a heavy presupposition (Which of course your entitled to ) I would have to change my mind on this ,if I believed this way ,in order for any investigation of any truth claim ,because this would hinder my mind on things ,before I even glanced at the claims . Many try read the bible this way are wearing a set of glasses. Usually given to them from others .
Any test for truth implies a clear definition of 'truth'. I use the 'correspondence' definition: that truth is a quality of statements, and that a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality.

This has the important advantage of giving an objective test for what's true.

And the question here is, Are supernatural beings, including gods, found in objective reality / nature / the world external to the self, or are they only found as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

Since there is not even one single authenticated example of a supernatural being with objective existence, I think the question answers itself.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
When it says ' according to the Scriptures ' Its referring to the bible . So its the Jesus of the bible, as described in the bible , the One who is the creator of all things, the one who died and rose again . The object of our faith is critical. It has to be in the biblical Jesus alone .
There is no such thing as the biblical Jesus, there is only Jesus.
Jesus is described in the Bible, but Christians misinterpreted many of the scriptures so they believe in the Jesus of Christianity, not the real Jesus who walked the earth. For example, Jesus did not create all things, God created all things.

What Christians believe is a matter of interpretation. All Christians do not believe that Jesus died and rose again, yet they are all reading the same Bible.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I just read this morning, a source from God, thats just been revealed today ,that Baha'u'llah was just a test , really the truth is on page 10 , Just follow those new instructions now.
. Sorry ,Gods just revealed ,what can you do eh ?
You obviously need a course in logic.
 

John1.12

Free gift
You obviously need a course in logic.
How is it possible for there to be a new revelation from God when the bible now completed does not allow for anything of the sort.
Gal 1
6¶I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This is saying that if any one ,even an angel comes and preaches a different message than the one delivered to them then its false ,don't believe it .
The bible does not allow for a extra, new revelation or a new prophet ,guru, Oprah Winfrey ect . Everything is there in the bible the beginning to the end .
 

John1.12

Free gift
Any test for truth implies a clear definition of 'truth'. I use the 'correspondence' definition: that truth is a quality of statements, and that a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality.

This has the important advantage of giving an objective test for what's true.

And the question here is, Are supernatural beings, including gods, found in objective reality / nature / the world external to the self, or are they only found as concepts / things imagined in individual brains.

Since there is not even one single authenticated example of a supernatural being with objective existence, I think the question answers itself.
///Since there is not even one single authenticated example of a supernatural being with objective existence, I think the question answers itself.//
What about Jesus? And what do you mean by objective existence?
 

John1.12

Free gift
There is no such thing as the biblical Jesus, there is only Jesus.
Jesus is described in the Bible, but Christians misinterpreted many of the scriptures so they believe in the Jesus of Christianity, not the real Jesus who walked the earth. For example, Jesus did not create all things, God created all things.

What Christians believe is a matter of interpretation. All Christians do not believe that Jesus died and rose again, yet they are all reading the same Bible.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
// Jesus did not create all things//Thats not what the bible says .

Col 1
16For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him , AND FOR HIM

17And he is before all things ,AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST .
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
All roads lead in two directions, do they not?
So what matters is not so much what road we may be on, as in which direction we are headed.

Other issues may occur when we reach a crossroads...
 
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John1.12

Free gift
There is no such thing as the biblical Jesus, there is only Jesus.
Jesus is described in the Bible, but Christians misinterpreted many of the scriptures so they believe in the Jesus of Christianity, not the real Jesus who walked the earth. For example, Jesus did not create all things, God created all things.

What Christians believe is a matter of interpretation. All Christians do not believe that Jesus died and rose again, yet they are all reading the same Bible.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
//Jesus is described in the Bible, but Christians misinterpreted many of the scriptures// This is your opinion and assumptions. Un validated assumptions.

//so they believe in the Jesus of Christianity, // No we believe in the Jesus as described in the bible. What do you mean by // not the real Jesus who walked the earth/// As described where ? In the bible ? The Bible in which I'm saying Christians read and learn of Jesus ect ?
 

John1.12

Free gift
There is no such thing as the biblical Jesus, there is only Jesus.
Jesus is described in the Bible, but Christians misinterpreted many of the scriptures so they believe in the Jesus of Christianity, not the real Jesus who walked the earth. For example, Jesus did not create all things, God created all things.

What Christians believe is a matter of interpretation. All Christians do not believe that Jesus died and rose again, yet they are all reading the same Bible.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death
//All Christians do not believe that Jesus died and rose again, yet they are all reading the same Bible.//
This would mean they are not Christian . I know atheists who 'Read the bible ' they also don't believe it . There's many different people who read or have read the bible and don't believe it to one degree or another . There's nothing new here . Jehovah's_Witnesses and Mormons believe some of the bible but not all of it . They have other extra materials from there ' prophets ' , leaders and founders which there thought to believe along side the bible. Catholics do this with ' tradition '. They don't believe Just the bible. Its bible + Tradition . None of this is new . There are all manner of cults which try to use the bible to support their teachings . I used to follow Eastern mysticism/ Buddhism/ new age ect . I ' used 'the bible all the time ( misused) in my 'pic n mix ' beliefs .
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
///Since there is not even one single authenticated example of a supernatural being with objective existence, I think the question answers itself.//
What about Jesus? And what do you mean by objective existence?
Are you referring to the resurrection? No eyewitness account, no independent account, earliest reference (Paul) at least twenty years after the purported event, first elaborated reference (Mark) 45 years after the purported event with an empty tomb only, first version with a resurrection (Matthew) 55 years after the purported event; in all, six versions of it in the NT (Paul, 4 gospels, and Acts 1) and all six contradict the other five in major ways. As evidence, it's a forensic trainwreck.

To have objective existence is to exist in the world external to the self, which is to say, to exist in nature.

As distinct from existing purely conceptually or as a thing imagined.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Are you referring to the resurrection? No eyewitness account, no independent account, earliest reference (Paul) at least twenty years after the purported event, first elaborated reference (Mark) 45 years after the purported event with an empty tomb only, first version with a resurrection (Matthew) 55 years after the purported event; in all, six versions of it in the NT (Paul, 4 gospels, and Acts 1) and all six contradict the other five in major ways. As evidence, it's a forensic trainwreck.

To have objective existence is to exist in the world external to the self, which is to say, to exist in nature.

As distinct from existing purely conceptually or as a thing imagined.
I'm referring to the entire bible, which speaks of Jesus .
Luke 24

5¶Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Do you understand that the Bible was not intended to be applied for all time?
So 'according to the Bible' is a moot point since God has revealed more scriptures since the Bible was written, and those scriptures supersede the Bible scriptures. It really is no different from the New Testament superseding the Old Testament because Jesus came with a new revelation from God and what Jesus revealed superseded whatever Moses had revealed during His dispensation.
//
Do you understand that the Bible was not intended to be applied for all time?// Which verse says this?
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Guys, please.

At the end of the day: if there’s a god and there’s only one god; how can any path take you anywhere else but there?


Humbly
Hermit
 

John1.12

Free gift
Guys, please.

At the end of the day: if there’s a god and there’s only one god; how can any path take you anywhere else but there?


Humbly
Hermit
When this God requires everone to Believe on Jesus and they don't. ( John 14.6 ) Because this is what the bible says . The bible says there is only one Path . Fine if you don't believe that, but its not what the bible actually says. So if the bible is from God and the words are from Jesus and if Jesus is God, and if this Jesus says he's the only ' path ' then not going on that path cannot lead to Jesus/ God .This is simple math / logic .
 

KerimF

Active Member
No, my distinction is between purely conceptual / imaginary beings, ones found only in individual brains, as distinct from beings with objective existence, those found in the world external to the self (aka nature, the realm of the physical sciences, &c).

But I am afraid that what may look imaginary and non-useful to someone might not be so to some others. Please note that this has nothing to do with one's intelligence level.
Being a realistic scientist, I accept an idea in my set of knowledge if it is logical and useful to me. This idea doesn't have to refer to an existing thing. For example, when I started learning geometry, I accepted the notion of the geometrical dot (point) which cannot exist by definition (dimensionless). If I refused this imaginary idea, I wouldn't be able learning any scientific field which may be based on it.
I also accepted the notion of infinity though I know in advance that I will never reach it (like two parallel lines intersect at infinity). But this imaginary notion of something that cannot exist in our limited world helps, for example, in drawing perspective images. Also, it helps me solving some algebraic problems.
Didn't you hear of the imaginary number (labeled i or j) which is the square root of -1? Again, I accepted it because it helps me solve certain problems and it ends up giving me real and useful results (though it is an imaginary non-real one).

In brief, if the notion of God (the Will/Energy behind the creation of our well defined complex universe, starting from our own body in which zillion of pre-programmed living cells know very well what to do) cannot be useful to someone, it is better for him to just forget it. In fact, I know many people who have no interest in many notions of imaginary things (in Math, Physics and the like) and, at the same time, they are all very satisfied of themselves.

I hope you get now why I started with:
I am afraid that what may look imaginary and non-useful to someone might not be so to some others.


In what manner does this "Will/ Energy" exist, then? If it's not physical, something found in nature, then it can ONLY be conceptual / imaginary, no?

At least it exists in me. Please note that it doesn't have to exist in every living being, humans included.

When I was a baby, I was totally ignorant (had no perception at all) about my own existence and the 'real' world into which I was brought temporarily. Then, things in me have evolved till I asked myself: "For which purpose I was forced to exist temporarily in this universe?". I deliberately used the verb ‘forced’ to emphasize that the beginning of my existence has nothing to do with my actual will by which I can end it anytime or not.

Naturally, to answer this question (crucial to me, so please note that not everyone feels the real need to discover the answer of such a question) I had to search my unknown origin (as in fiction movies); that is searching the Will/Energy behind my own existence. Since many decades, I discovered the answer; logical and useful, to me in the least (besides all other important answers I was looking for). This is why I fully understand, for example, why you have no interest at all in a notion which refers to whatever could be behind your existence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But I am afraid that what may look imaginary and non-useful to someone might not be so to some others.
I didn't say that being wholly conceptual or imaginary was non-useful. We use such ideas all the time, abstractions like justice or discomfort or two.

Instead I point out their actual nature ─ you won't find 'justice' out there, only instances which we judge to be just; you won't find an uninstantiated two out there either, simply instantiations which we judge to be examples of twoness.

And we don't find supernatural beings out there either. They're also wholly conceptual / imaginary.
Please note that this has nothing to do with one's intelligence level.
I haven't suggested that it does.
Being a realistic scientist, I accept an idea in my set of knowledge if it is logical and useful to me. This idea doesn't have to refer to an existing thing. For example, when I started learning geometry, I accepted the notion of the geometrical dot (point) which cannot exist by definition (dimensionless). If I refused this imaginary idea, I wouldn't be able learning any scientific field which may be based on it.
I also accepted the notion of infinity though I know in advance that I will never reach it (like two parallel lines intersect at infinity). But this imaginary notion of something that cannot exist in our limited world helps, for example, in drawing perspective images. Also, it helps me solving some algebraic problems.
Didn't you hear of the imaginary number (labeled i or j) which is the square root of -1? Again, I accepted it because it helps me solve certain problems and it ends up giving me real and useful results (though it is an imaginary non-real one).
Just so. As I pointed out above, all numbers are conceptual, and no (for example) counting can take place without a human to determine what is to be counted (the subject) and in what field it is to be counted (eg how many hens (subject) in the barn (field)?
In brief, if the notion of God (the Will/Energy behind the creation of our well defined complex universe, starting from our own body in which zillion of pre-programmed living cells know very well what to do) cannot be useful to someone, it is better for him to just forget it.
'Will' is an abstraction, a concept. You can't find 'will' in nature, only as an aspect of animal mentation. Energy, on the other hand, is a thing found in nature. Will may cause us to exert energy, but the categories are different.
In fact, I know many people who have no interest in many notions of imaginary things (in Math, Physics and the like) and, at the same time, they are all very satisfied of themselves.
The meaning of 'to be satisfied with oneself' varies with context, but if here you mean 'self-satisfied' in its usual pejorative sense then I agree that the condition is very usually unhelpful to the person.
I am afraid that what may look imaginary and non-useful to someone might not be so to some others.
As I suggested above, whether something has objective existence or not is subject to the simple test of whether we can point to it (as a thing) in nature.
When I was a baby, I was totally ignorant (had no perception at all) about my own existence and the 'real' world into which I was brought temporarily. Then, things in me have evolved till I asked myself: "For which purpose I was forced to exist temporarily in this universe?". I deliberately used the verb ‘forced’ to emphasize that the beginning of my existence has nothing to do with my actual will by which I can end it anytime or not.

Naturally, to answer this question (crucial to me, so please note that not everyone feels the real need to discover the answer of such a question) I had to search my unknown origin (as in fiction movies); that is searching the Will/Energy behind my own existence. Since many decades, I discovered the answer; logical and useful, to me in the least (besides all other important answers I was looking for). This is why I fully understand, for example, why you have no interest at all in a notion which refers to whatever could be behind your existence.
I exist because my parents caused my conception and I was born. They caused my conception because the imperative of evolution is to survive long enough to breed, and we humans are no less subject to that than any other living creature.

That is about as close as we can get to an objective reason for existing. Otherwise we each find our own sense of meaning. For me, little has been more meaningful than family ─ something not at all unusual.
 

KerimF

Active Member
I haven't suggested that it does.

I wish you know that I, Kerim, don't use arguing or debating, I just try to present (as my vocabulary allows) what I have in mind during a conversation (I have nothing to hide).
Now I am about 70. I didn't meet/know yet a healthy mature person who sees himself wrong in his beliefs. And I didn't have the chance to meet a healthy mature person (including myself) who can change really his main priorities in life even if he tries doing it. At best, one can pretend doing it temporarily in order to please (or deceive perhaps) some others.

If I understood you well, the main purpose of your existence is to breed which is not bad at all. In fact, I am sure that my earthly father (he died when I was 9) didn't mind fulfilling this goal; otherwise I wouldn't be here.
But, on the other hand, it happens that I couldn't see myself as a breeding tool while I fully understand that almost all men on earth shouldn't be like me in this respect.

You likely read that I am a student of Jesus.
I didn't say I am Christian because I, unlike all formal Christians in the world, didn't see Jesus (as presented on the Gospel) talking about a ruling authoritative one-being God. Otherwise, Jesus would be to me just another character that was made famous, along history, by some powerful rich people in order to gather around them as much followers as possible (much like political parties do).

It happens that I was born in a community in which most families are Muslim (though of different sects). Therefore, most of my friends and assistants at work are Muslim. As you know, a Muslim (as a Jew and formal Christian) is supposed to see his Creator (called Allah in Arabic) as One Supernatural Being playing the role of the Supreme King (Judge). Naturally, I let them all know that such an image of a ruling God cannot exist in my reality in which I live the unconditional love/care towards all others, friends and enemies. So I used hearing, once a while, some friends saying something like: "We pity you, Karim. You will have to be in Allah's hell in the afterlife while we will end up being in Allah's paradise. We will miss you there ".
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wish you know that I, Kerim, don't use arguing or debating, I just try to present (as my vocabulary allows) what I have in mind during a conversation (I have nothing to hide).
Now I am about 70. I didn't meet/know yet a healthy mature person who sees himself wrong in his beliefs. And I didn't have the chance to meet a healthy mature person (including myself) who can change really his main priorities in life even if he tries doing it. At best, one can pretend doing it temporarily in order to please (or deceive perhaps) some others.

If I understood you well, the main purpose of your existence is to breed which is not bad at all. In fact, I am sure that my earthly father (he died when I was 9) didn't mind fulfilling this goal; otherwise I wouldn't be here.
But, on the other hand, it happens that I couldn't see myself as a breeding tool while I fully understand that almost all men on earth shouldn't be like me in this respect.

You likely read that I am a student of Jesus.
I didn't say I am Christian because I, unlike all formal Christians in the world, didn't see Jesus (as presented on the Gospel) talking about a ruling authoritative one-being God. Otherwise, Jesus would be to me just another character that was made famous, along history, by some powerful rich people inn order to gather around themselves as much followers as possible (much like political parties do).

It happens that I was born in a community in which most families are Muslim (though of different sects). Therefore, most of my friends and assistants at work are Muslim. As you know, a Muslim (as a Jew and formal Christian) is supposed to see his Creator (called Allah in Arabic) as One Supernatural Being playing the role of the Supreme King (Judge). Naturally, I let them all know that such an image of a ruling God cannot exist in my reality in which I live the unconditional love/care towards all others, friends and enemies. So I used hearing, once a while, some friends saying something like: "We pity you, Karim. You will have to be in Allah's hell in the afterlife while we will end up be in Allah's paradise. We will miss you there ".
I really don't think that either you or I are in peril from any supernatural being, now or after death.

But if your beliefs bring you comfort and a sense of being in tune with your world, then I wish you well.
 
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