Is according to Jews everything God's will?

[Skywalker]

Greetings. You do know what the term Avodah Zara means, right?

I will explain.

1. The concept of "messiah" that is put forth in the New Testament is Avodah Zara. I.e. the meaning of the word (and what kind of individual it is supposed to describe) put forth by the NT is Avodah Zara.
2. Further, statements made by the NT authors about Jesus are Avodah Zara.
3. The future expectations taught by various NT authors from Matthew to Revelations and how they have been historically interpreted from the time they were written, to the Church Father's allucidations on them, and how they are perceived today are Avodah Zara.

For example, the following statements made in the NT are a few examples of Avodah Zara concepts in the NT text.

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Thus, Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews were warned by Hashem to stay away from such.

I hope that helps.

The Messiah entered Jerusalem on a donkey. Jesus said in Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Jesus will come on a white horse in the future when 1/3 of Israel is saved when Israel is heavily evangelized during the Tribulation. When Jesus came the first time and his own rejected him, he came on a donkey. Answering Judaism: Examination of some arguments raised by "Supplement to Contra Brown" 3

"II. 29. Objection 3:24
Brown addresses the Christian doctrine of a “second coming” of the Messiah. From a Biblical standpoint, the only argument he has presented is the seeming contradiction between Zechariah 9:9, where the Messiah is to come riding on a donkey, and Daniel 7:13, which has the Messiah riding on the clouds. Brown’s solution for this “problem” is that messiah will come twice. Once as a suffering Messiah, in fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy, the second time he will come on the clouds in fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. The problem with Brown’s “problem” is that Daniel 7:13 says nothing about the Messiah riding on the clouds. The angel himself told Daniel that this was a symbolic image of Israel acquiring the kingdom in the Messianic age (Daniel 7:18,27)."

Yet Rashi himself interprets Daniel 7:13 as a referrence to King Messiah although to preface this Rashi doesn't believe in the Deity of Christ nor does he interpret the Son of Man as divine, that's important to remember. He also doesn't interpret Isaiah 9:6 as Messianic in nature and issues a challenge to Christians on this subject, but that is another story. Point is, Rashi's commentary says the following which can be found here: http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16490/jewish/Chapter-7.htm#showrashi=true
I have highlighted Rashi's points in italics.

"13. I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him. יג. חָזֵה הֲוֵית בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵילְיָא וַאֲרוּ עִם עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָא וְעַד עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא מְטָה וּקְדָמוֹהִי הַקְרְבוּהִי:
one like a man was coming: That is the King Messiah.

and… up to the Ancient of Days: Who was sitting in judgment and judging the nations.

came: arrived, reached.

14. And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. יד. וְלֵהּ יְהִב שָׁלְטָן וִיקָר וּמַלְכוּ וְכֹל עַמְמַיָּא אֻמַּיָּא וְלִשָּׁנַיָּא לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן שָׁלְטָנֵהּ שָׁלְטַן עָלַם דִּי לָא יֶעְדֵּה וּמַלְכוּתֵהּ דִּי לָא תִתְחַבַּל:
And He gave him dominion: And to that man He gave dominion over the nations, for the heathens he likens to beasts, and Israel he likens to a man because they are humble and innocent.

which will not be removed: [as translated,] will not be removed."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Israel cannot be the Suffering Servant. Israel is not righteous and fought back. JEWISH OBJECTIONS TO JESUS IN ISAIAH 53 | ShalomShalom.info

The remnant of Israel is , by definition,righteous.

 

[Skywalker]

The remnant of Israel is , by definition,righteous.

Raphael Patai, said that the concept of a suffering Messiah, of course it makes sense. Jewish history, he's one of us, he understands, he doesn't just come riding in on a white horse. To this day, the funeral for great Jewish rabbis, they will say may his death serve as an atonement. The atoning power of the death of the righteous-Isaiah 53, he makes himself an asham, a guilt offering.

 

[Skywalker]

Please stop listening to Jews for Jesus. They really don't know what they're talking about.
Here - Origen, one of the Church Fathers, commonly had discussions with Jews in the Land of Israel - Caesarea in particular - during the 3rd century CE. Here's what he wrote of these chapters in Isaiah:

"Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations. And in this way he explained the words, Your form shall be of no reputation among men; and then, They to whom no message was sent respecting him shall see; and the expression, A man under suffering. " (Contra Celsum, ch. 55)
​

You see? Hundreds of years before Rashi, Origen - a famous, highly-reputed Christian, recorded that the Jews believed this.

After Jews began having more contact with Christian apologists, more of them began reinterpreting the Suffering Servant to be the Nation of Israel. Rashi's views dominate Jewish and rabbinical theology. People confuse Biblical Judaism with rabbinic Judaism. THE MOSHIACH

God gave mankind the law as a measuring stick, to show us that we're all a bunch of miserable failures in God's eyes who need a Savior. God's Law points us to Jesus, the Messiah, Who paid our sin debt with His own physical blood. Jesus paid a debt that He did not owe, because we owed a debt that we could not pay. Amen and Amen!
Sadly, the Jews are looking for a moshiach—a super hero so-to-speak; but not a divine Savior in any way. This super leader will be a great judge and a mighty warrior and will to lead their nation politically to victory, but he will be a mere man with no special powers from God

 

[Harel13]

After Jews began having more contact with Christian apologists, more of them began reinterpreting the Suffering Servant to be the Nation of Israel. Rashi's views dominate Jewish and rabbinical theology. People confuse Biblical Judaism with rabbinic Judaism. THE MOSHIACH

Skywalker, we've been over this a million times. You have zero evidence for your claims. Dude! You're literally quoting a post of mine where I quote Origen, a Christian just like you who proves you wrong.
Stop with the nonsense. You've got zero ammo.

 

[Skywalker]

Skywalker, we've been over this a million times. You have zero evidence for your claims. Dude! You're literally quoting a post of mine where I quote Origen, a Christian just like you who proves you wrong.
Stop with the nonsense. You've got zero ammo.

Not all of them believed that the Suffering Servant was Israel before contact with Christian apologists, although many did.

 

[Harel13]

Not all of them believed that the Suffering Servant was Israel before contact with Christian apologists, although many did.

Yes. You know who didn't think this? Jewish apostates to Christianity. The rest side with Israel.
Admit you have no evidence for your point.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes. You know who didn't think this? Jewish apostates to Christianity. The rest side with Israel.
Admit you have no evidence for your point.

While many Jewish people believed that the Suffering Servant was Israel before contact with Christian apologists, many of them saw that there was so much evidence that the Suffering Servant was the Messiah. It takes more faith to believe that the Suffering Servant is Israel than the Messiah. Sadly, pride darkens the heart and clouds the visions of many people. The true Jesus is not the fictitious Jesus conceived by popular culture, which tries to make Him to be like us rather than the other way around. Many churches dilute their message, whitewash difficult Bible passages, or present Jesus as something He is not. Culturally pleasing but fraudulent pictures of Jesus are people making God in their image. People have advanced many false messiahs and impostor Jesuses in their own image, and the idea that the Messiah is a political figure man is one of them.

 

[Harel13]

While many Jewish people believed that the Suffering Servant was Israel before contact with Christian apologists, many of them saw that there was so much evidence that the Suffering Servant was the Messiah. It takes more faith to believe that the Suffering Servant is Israel than the Messiah. Sadly, pride darkens the heart and clouds the visions of many people. The true Jesus is not the fictitious Jesus conceived by popular culture, which tries to make Him to be like us rather than the other way around. Many churches dilute their message, whitewash difficult Bible passages, or present Jesus as something He is not. Culturally pleasing but fraudulent pictures of Jesus are people making God in their image. People have advanced many false messiahs and impostor Jesuses in their own image, and the idea that the Messiah is a political figure man is one of them.

Thank you for the admission.
May I take it that you'll stop claiming Rashi or some other Jewish sage "invented" the concept?

 

[Skywalker]

Thank you for the admission.
May I take it that you'll stop claiming Rashi or some other Jewish sage "invented" the concept?

I'm not saying that Rashi started the doctrine that the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel, but many people follow the interpretations of the Bible that fit what is convenient for them, and today Rashi's view dominates Jewish and rabbinical theology.

 

[Harel13]

I'm not saying that Rashi started the doctrine that the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel, but many people follow the interpretations of the Bible that fit what is convenient for them, and today Rashi's view dominates Jewish and rabbinical theology.

"Not saying"? That is exactly what you have been saying until now. Is it truly impossible for you to admit that there is zero evidence for your view?

 

[Skywalker]

"Not saying"? That is exactly what you have been saying until now. Is it truly impossible for you to admit that there is zero evidence for your view?

The belief that the Messiah isn't a divine Savior is never mentioned in the Old Testament-its just an interpretation of the Old Testament. There are many opinions but there is only one absolute truth. I believe that the Messiah is a divine Savior, because when people commit crimes they go to jail, and no matter how hard we try, we are still going to sin. A barrier of sin exists between people and God, and Jesus came to remove that barrier of sin. The Old Testament talks about a Savior Messiah, who will also have political functions during the 1000 years, but He is first and foremost a Savior Messiah. I Know My Redeemer Lives

We do not “know” that Christ lives, just because this idea makes us feel good. Here is how we really know, and know that we know.

We have the testimony of the scriptures. (1) David prophesied that though Christ would be murdered, he would rise from the grave (Psalm 16:10; cf. Acts 2:25ff). (2) Isaiah foretold that while Jehovah’s suffering Servant would be put to death, nonetheless he would “see his seed” (i.e., numerous spiritual offspring, cf. Isaiah 11:1; Romans 7:4; Hebrews 2:13), and his days would be prolonged (Isaiah 53:10b). (3) Jesus himself promised he would be raised from the dead (Matthew 16:21; John 2:19, 21). (4) Many witnesses testified to the fact that Christ was raised to die no more (Romans 6:9; Revelation 1:18). For a consideration of some of those witnesses, see 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.

 

[Harel13]

The belief that the Messiah isn't a divine Savior is never mentioned in the Old Testament-its just an interpretation of the Old Testament. There are many opinions but there is only one absolute truth. I believe that the Messiah is a divine Savior, because when people commit crimes they go to jail, and no matter how hard we try, we are still going to sin. A barrier of sin exists between people and God, and Jesus came to remove that barrier of sin. The Old Testament talks about a Savior Messiah, who will also have political functions during the 1000 years, but He is first and foremost a Savior Messiah. I Know My Redeemer Lives

Whatevs.

 

[Skywalker]

Whatevs.

Job knew that the barrier of sin existed between people and God. Job 9:33

Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

 

[Harel13]

Job knew that the barrier of sin existed between people and God. Job 9:33

Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Oh brother.

 

[Skywalker]

Oh brother.

The Messiah came to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God. Only God can do that. The compound unity of echad shows that the Messiah was God the Son and the divinity of the Messiah is what the Bible teaches. Yachid refers to a solitary oneness and is never used to refer to God.

 

[Harel13]

The Messiah came to remove the barrier of sin from between people and God. Only God can do that. The compound unity of echad shows that the Messiah was God the Son and the divinity of the Messiah is what the Bible teaches. Yachid refers to a solitary oneness and is never used to refer to God.

Look, it's long been obvious that you don't care about what other people actually say to you. You're only interested in repeating your same bunch of points. As long as that's the case, I guess I have nothing else to say to you. Therefore, I recommend you stop quoting old posts of mine. It's a waste of both of our time.

 

[Skywalker]

Look, it's long been obvious that you don't care about what other people actually say to you. You're only interested in repeating your same bunch of points. As long as that's the case, I guess I have nothing else to say to you. Therefore, I recommend you stop quoting old posts of mine. It's a waste of both of our time.

Why do you think echad is used for God in the Old Testament and not yachid?

 

[Harel13]

Why do you think echad is used for God in the Old Testament and not yachid?

It's called Hebrew man. Hebrew works like that. It's later Christian polemics that claimed that Jews changed the meaning of Hebrew. Pure, disgusting audacity.

 

[Skywalker]

It's called Hebrew man. Hebrew works like that. It's later Christian polemics that claimed that Jews changed the meaning of Hebrew. Pure, disgusting audacity.

Christians saying anti semetic things was terrible. They were being a bad example of Jesus and did more damage to the gospel than even atheists. That has nothing to do with Jesus dying for his creation. Real Messiah

First of all, those who claim to be "Christians," but persecute, torture, or kill other human beings in Jesus' name, cannot really know Jesus and are falsely claiming to follow him. Not only does the Torah forbid murder, but Jesus himself pronounced a blessing upon the meek and those who seek peace, and he commanded his followers to love their enemies, to pray for those who persecute them, and to do good to those who hate them (see Matt. 5:44; Luke 6:35). There are many examples in the New Testament that show that the true followers of Jesus are not those who do the persecuting, but those who are persecuted for their faith in him. Jesus warned that there would be disingenuous people who would be his followers in name only since their actions would betray their hardened hearts and evil deeds (see Matt. 7:21-23). God is very aware of the utter hypocrisy of these false followers of his Messiah and will judge them accordingly.