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Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
If there have been "quite a great number" of Christians you have spoke with that believe "the Rabbinic Movement came out of nowhere", then will you give us merely 5 quotes that show Christians actually believe that "the Rabbinic Movement came out of 'nowhere'"?
Quoting from users here would be problematic, as it's against site rules.
I'll see if I've got any inclination to go back to forums I no longer hang around just to assemble some quotes.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes they are.
Who cares.
No it doesn't.
Next?

Joseph was the stepfather of Jesus and he was a descendant of King David's son Solomon. In Judaism, an adoptive father was always considered father in every respect. Midrash Aggada, Numbers 3, A says “On what basis do we relate Aaron’s sons with Moses? Since he taught them Torah. And it is written about him as if he begot them. And therefore it is said that on the day that the Lord spoke to Moses at Sinai: Who made the sons of Aaron be called by Moses? The Torah that God spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai. Thus you should teach that whoever teaches his friend’s son Torah the scriptures say that he has begotten him.”
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Joseph was the stepfather of Jesus and he was a descendant of King David's son Solomon. In Judaism, an adoptive father was always considered father in every respect. Midrash Aggada, Numbers 3, A says “On what basis do we relate Aaron’s sons with Moses? Since he taught them Torah. And it is written about him as if he begot them. And therefore it is said that on the day that the Lord spoke to Moses at Sinai: Who made the sons of Aaron be called by Moses? The Torah that God spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai. Thus you should teach that whoever teaches his friend’s son Torah the scriptures say that he has begotten him.”
Who cares?
No an adoptive father wasn't.
And yet Aaron's kids didn't inherit from Moses, so he wasn't as their father (nor would they have been adopted by him as their own father was still alive).
Next?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Who cares?
No an adoptive father wasn't.
And yet Aaron's kids didn't inherit from Moses, so he wasn't as their father (nor would they have been adopted by him as their own father was still alive).
Next?

Prof. Hananel Mak, Talmud Department University of Bar Ilan said from his work on Rashi’s Rabbi, Rav Moshe HaDarshan: “The commentary is based on the combination of the human character of the Messiah who does not have a father of flesh and blood, the prophecy of the suffering and servile servant of Isaiah 53, which is the section “My servant will act wisely” and Psalm 110, that describes the relationship of God with the one sitting at his right and with Melchizedek.” Rabbi Moshe haDarshansays that God enabled the Messiah to save souls.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Greetings 2ndpillar,

I want to thank you for making this comment for a second reason since without knowing it you have proven the OP to be valid.

Consider the following.

If one is to accept that your comments are correct that ALL Jews from the time of Jeremiah to the present have a) not correctly kept the Torah given at Mount Sinai and b) have not correctly transcribed the written text of the Torah then you have to accept that Jesus was not a leader of Jews, not a king of Jews, and also was not a Davidic descendent BUT you would also have accept that he sinned big time, if he even existed.

What I mean is that the NT gospel authors claim that Jesus supported the Hebrew text of the Torah that existed during the second Temple period and that he supported those who had transmatted it (Pharisees and Scribes both). The author of Matthew 23:1-3 makes this clear when he claims that Jesus said the following.

View attachment 49386

Further, the NT gospel author of John claimed that Jesus told the Samaritan woman that the Jews had things correct, Tanakh wise and in general, as shown below.

View attachment 49387

So, IF what you are claiming were true it would have been a sin for Jesus to not have:
  1. Written at least 14 correct versions of the Torah.
    • In order to outdo Mosheh ben-Amram, Rabban of all of Am Yisrael who keep Torath Mosheh, who transcribed 13 before he passed.
  2. Jesus would have had to have passed out said correct versions of the Torah to his students and followers.
  3. Jesus would have had to have given a exposition on all 613 mitzvoth of the Torah he wrote.
  4. Jesus would have had to have given instructions to his followers on how to survive and keep the texts he wrote himself around for future Jewish generations.
But we all know that the NT gopsel authors made it clear that during Jesus's time and after Torath Mosheh was being kept in and outside of the land of Israel by Torath Mosheh Jews of that generation. Further, modern Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are descendents of the Israelis/Jews who followed the instructions of Mosheh ben-Amram and also Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) from those generations.

Thus, if, as you claim, Jesus lived during a time when the written Torah had been incorrectly preserved and he himself did not write a correct version and pass it around then he committed a sin according to the Torah in Waiyigra 19 as stated below.

View attachment 49388
View attachment 49389

Thus, your comments supports the OP and you may not have realized it. Thanks.

Your presumptions seem to be in error. I have no problem with the Torah, my problem is with the Pharisees and Sadducees, who interpreted the Torah. The lies lie within the interpretation and implementation, whether written or oral, and the term scribe implies a written version. As for what Yeshua said, he said to do what the Pharisees say to do, just do not do what they do. As for what God says about Judah and Ephraim, they will be "crushed in judgment" (Hosea 5:11-12) until they "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5;16), and at that time they will be healed, but not until after 2 days (2 thousand years) (Hosea 6:2). The question is, two days after what day?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Prof. Hananel Mak, Talmud Department University of Bar Ilan said from his work on Rashi’s Rabbi, Rav Moshe HaDarshan: “The commentary is based on the combination of the human character of the Messiah who does not have a father of flesh and blood, the prophecy of the suffering and servile servant of Isaiah 53, which is the section “My servant will act wisely” and Psalm 110, that describes the relationship of God with the one sitting at his right and with Melchizedek.” Rabbi Moshe haDarshansays that God enabled the Messiah to save souls.
So what?
Next?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Who cares?
No an adoptive father wasn't.
And yet Aaron's kids didn't inherit from Moses, so he wasn't as their father (nor would they have been adopted by him as their own father was still alive).
Next?

People inherit from their adopted parents.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Rationally. We live on earth O one planet inside it's heavens as humans.

Humans in group control owned by the group choice enforced temple pyramid science. That changed gods O body earth and life was attacked.

A one of explained review about nuclear occult science learnt.

No need to learn again that science was wrong.

Rome that caused the Jewish Christian movement new teaching as the elite control versus human rights was of the want and practice of technology. The same Technology that had previously caused life attack. Said it was new yet it was the same cause so owned similar thesis reviews.

Why would it be acceptable?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Lawyers don't go to the scriptures to figure out if an adopted child will inherit something from their adopted parent.
Lawyers don't deal with issues of religion. You wrote that you were dealing with religion ("In Judaism, an adoptive father was always considered father in every respect. ") Therefore, citing lawyer practice is useless.
Next?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So what?
Next?

I believe that there are hints even with rabbinic Judaism of the Messiah being a Savior. The rabbis i mentioned wrote about the Messiah not having a human father and being the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and the Messiah saving souls. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Your presumptions seem to be in error.

Greetings,

Again, you are proving out the OP. It is your interpretation based on Christian standards that drives your statement. ;)

my problem is with the Pharisees and Sadducees, who interpreted the Torah. The lies lie within the interpretation and implementation, whether written or oral, and the term scribe implies a written version.

Again, you are proving out the OP. Your understanding of what a Pharisee or even a Sadducee even is comes from Christian standards based on the NT. For Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews both the Christian standard and the NT historically and theologically inaccurate. ;)

As for what Yeshua said, he said to do what the Pharisees say to do, just do not do what they do.

Actually, I didn't say that Jesus stated that. I wrote that the NT author put that in there. Even the statement, as it is written in the Greek and the Hebrew translation leads me back to the same conclusion that the NT author's were trying to make a political statement. I.e. the Jews have the correct text of the Torah and the correct authority about how to understand and practice the Torah. Yet, the NT author had to find a way to seperate the Jewish Christians out of the Torath Mosheh communities of that time. Easy way out. Add a statement of "Do what they say because they have it right, BUT since certain individuals don't do what they themselves say don't act like them. Yet, what they say do it." Yet, we all know the historical reality is that the original Jewish Christians disappeared historically within 2 generations of their start while the Torath Mosheh Jews of that generation survived. That speaks volumes.

As for what God says about Judah and Ephraim, they will be "crushed in judgment" (Hosea 5:11-12) until they "acknowledge their guilt" (Hosea 5;16), and at that time they will be healed, but not until after 2 days (2 thousand years) (Hosea 6:2). The question is, two days after what day?

Again, the OP again. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews have a practice is called "we read something from start to finish" in the language it was written and then come to a conclusion on what it says. Yet, I know this is not a practice of some sects of Christianity. Again, OP says it all.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jewish lawyers do within the Torath Mosheh Jewish communities.

Christian lawyers go to the Bible for answers to, but that doesn't mean that little details like an adopted child getting inheritance is always addressed in the Bible.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I believe that there are hints even with rabbinic Judaism of the Messiah being a Savior. The rabbis i mentioned wrote about the Messiah not having a human father and being the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and the Messiah saving souls. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
So there's more stuff you don't understand. So what?
Next?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So there's more stuff you don't understand. So what?
Next?

The Old Testament never says that the Messiah will be a political figure who is not God. Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Does the Old Testament truly predict a second advent of the Messiah?"

Answer:
The Old Testament does prophesy the second coming of Christ, also referred to as the second advent of the Messiah. Some Old Testament prophecies concern the first advent, when Christ was born as a human being. Others concern the second advent, which is the ultimate triumph of this Messiah. It’s important to remember that prophecy does not describe the future in the same detail as history describes the past. So, while the prophecies of the Old Testament certainly describe both the first and second advents, most early interpretations of these prophecies melded them into a single event. Particularly during the years leading up to Jesus’ birth, it was assumed Messiah would be a political/military figure with an immediate worldly kingdom (Luke 19:11). In the light of Jesus’ ministry, it is possible to understand the true purpose of Christ and the real nature of His kingdom.

Jesus said in Mark 7:13, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. People believe interpretation that the Messiah is a political figure because they follow the Law and reject the Messiah. The interpretation that the Messiah is a political figure is not taken from what the Word of God says but from the opinions of people. Since truth and lies are mixed, there are references within the opinions of rabbis that the Messiah was to be God.
 
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