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Enemies of Israel

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
So they allowed their personal desires to colour their scriptural interpretations. Thats not a good thing.


The Governing body seems to contradict the watchtower on the issue of divine inspiration, from Development of Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine - Wikipedia
;

'Watch Tower literature has suggested such enlightenment results from the application of reason and study,[17] the guidance of holy spirit, and direction from Jesus Christ and angels.[18] Rutherford spoke of spiritual "lightning flashes in the temple";[19] the Society claims its doctrine of the "great crowd" and "other sheep" were "revealed" to "God’s earthly servants" in 1935,[20][21] and Witness literature has also described sudden changes in doctrines as "flashes of light" given by God through his holy spirit.[22] A 1930 publication claimed God used "invisible deputies" and "invisible angels" to pass his "messages" to The Watchtower,[23][24]...

...The organization's earlier literature has included claims that its predictions about dates such as 1925 were "indisputable",[28] "absolutely and unqualifiedly correct"[29] and bearing "the stamp of approval of Almighty God",[29] but the Governing Body which was established later says its teachings are neither infallibile nor divinely inspired.[30][31][32]'
What strikes me as odd is that JWs argue that the gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles, yet continue to seek the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit in their understanding of scripture.

IMO, the Holy Spirit cannot be divided up in this way.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe that the Israel becoming a nation again is a sign of Bible prophecy being fulfilled. Bible prophecies: Regathering of Israel

I believe that God is in the process of restoring Judah to the land of their ancestors; but the present land of Israel should not be confused with the inheritance promised to Abram, which was far greater in size [Genesis 15:18].

I believe this process of repatriation began in earnest after 1917, and that 1948 was an important moment in the securing of territory for Jews . But, lMO, this 'revival' has not yet led to the 'raising up' mentioned by Hosea in 6:1-3.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I believe that God is in the process of restoring Judah to the land of their ancestors; but the present land of Israel should not be confused with the inheritance promised to Abram, which was far greater in size [Genesis 15:18].

I believe this process of repatriation began in earnest after 1917, and that 1948 was an important moment in the securing of territory for Jews . But, lMO, this 'revival' has not yet led to the 'raising up' mentioned by Hosea in 6:1-3.

Do you believe the Millennium is taught in the Bible or its an endless genealogy? Will Israel Be Regathered? - By Dr. Harry Ironside, D.D., Litt.D.

We have already seen (I hope clearly) that GOD has dealt with man through a series of dispensations; that we are living in the dispensation of the grace of GOD, or the dispensation of the mystery, when GOD is taking out from among the Gentiles a people for His name. He is gathering out a company to be for all eternity the Body and Bride of His Son. We have also seen (I hope clearly) that in due time GOD is going to fulfill the promises made to Israel.

Will the fulfillment of those promises involve the return of the nation to the Land of Palestine? Must the Land of Palestine again become the acknowledged home of the people of Israel, and will Mount Zion, the actual city of Jerusalem, become the seat of the throne of the King in the coming day?

Let us first turn to the Book of Genesis and see what promises GOD made in regard to the land. Genesis 12:7:

"Unto thy seed will I give this land." There is the first promise. It is very short and very clear. There are no conditions made. GOD simply appears to Abraham and says, "I am going to do a certain thing." He does not say, "If you do so and so, I will do so and so. If your seed after you prove faithful to me, I will confirm this," but "unto thy seed will I give this land."

He amplifies that promise in 13:14: "And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

This is an added word to the promise, and it seems at least to imply that GOD will never revoke this land grant to the nation of Israel, to the seed of Abraham:

"Unto thy seed will I give this land for ever, And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered."

Abraham has both a spiritual and a natural seed.

- when GOD speaks of his seed as numberless as the dust of the earth, that necessarily refers to the earthly seed.
- when GOD speaks of his seed as the stars of the Heaven, that refers to the heavenly seed.

Here is distinctly the earthly seed, as numerous as the dust of the earth.

Verse 17: "Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee."

In 15:18, we have the limits of the land divided in a fuller way:

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites."
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Do you believe the Millennium is taught in the Bible or its an endless genealogy? Will Israel Be Regathered? - By Dr. Harry Ironside, D.D., Litt.D.
It's interesting that you should refer to Harry Ironside. l believe he was a Godly man, and l like his thinking.

In my opinion, if it's worth anything, l believe that there will be a seventh day Millennium on earth. I base this on the days of Genesis as representing thousand year days on earth. This idea is supported by 2 Peter 3:8.

Some people believe that, in the thousand year scheme, the Sabbath day becomes the eternal day of God, but this would not allow for a fulfilment of the promises made to Abram in Genesis 15:18. There are a number of other passages, some quoted by Ironside in your link, that indicate a role for lsrael amongst the nations in the future.

One might also ask whether the Sabbath day is not a day under the law, whereas the first day of the new week is not a day of resurrection glory. If this be true, then it makes it even more likely that the prophetic Sabbath, or Millennium, will occur on earth before a 'new heaven and earth'. [Rev.21:1]

This little scheme is complicated further by such things as the rapture, vengeance of God/judgment, and the reorganisation of the world under Christ's governance!

I don't wish to be too dogmatic on these matters, as l have no personal revelation about them, but rely solely on faithful study for my answers!
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's interesting that you should refer to Harry Ironside. l believe he was a Godly man, and l like his thinking.

In my opinion, if it's worth anything, l believe that there will be a seventh day Millennium on earth. I base this on the days of Genesis as representing thousand year days on earth. This idea is supported by 2 Peter 3:8.

Some people believe that, in the thousand year scheme, the Sabbath day becomes the eternal day of God, but this would not allow for a fulfilment of the promises made to Abram in Genesis 15:18. There are a number of other passages, some quoted by Ironside in your link, that indicate a role for lsrael amongst the nations in the future.

One might also ask whether the Sabbath day is not a day under the law, whereas the first day of the new week is not a day of resurrection glory. If this be true, then it makes it even more likely that the prophetic Sabbath, or Millennium, will occur on earth before a 'new heaven and earth'. [Rev.21:1]

This little scheme is complicated further by such things as the rapture, vengeance of God/judgment, and the reorganisation of the world under Christ's governance!

I don't wish to be too dogmatic on these matters, as l have no personal revelation about them, but rely solely on faithful study for my answers!

Do you think the verses about the Millennium are references to the New Covenant? What is the Millennial Kingdom, and should it be understood literally? | GotQuestions.org

The millennial kingdom is the title given to the 1,000-year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth. Some seek to interpret the 1,000 years in an allegorical manner. They understand the 1,000 years as merely a figurative way of saying “a long period of time,” not a literal, physical reign of Jesus Christ on the earth. However, six times in Revelation 20:2-7, the millennial kingdom is specifically said to be 1,000 years in length. If God wished to communicate “a long period of time,” He could have easily done so without explicitly and repeatedly mentioning an exact time frame.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Do you think the verses about the Millennium are references to the New Covenant? What is the Millennial Kingdom, and should it be understood literally? | GotQuestions.org

No, l don't.

The new covenant came into effect as the testament of a man who had died (but, later, raised). It was effective from the day of Pentecost, the day on which the promised Spirit of Christ entered the body of Christ, the Church, on earth. If one was to say that the Millennium began on the day of Pentecost, then one would also have to conclude that the Millennium ended a thousand years later, in the Middle Ages. There would be no more 'new covenant' from then onwards!

The Millennium should not be confused with the new covenant, but should, l believe, be understood to represent the period of peace that descends on the world when a knowledge of God becomes universal. The key to this must be the nation of Israel, who are the last to accept Christ before his return.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, l don't.

The new covenant came into effect as the testament of a man who had died (but, later, raised). It was effective from the day of Pentecost, the day on which the promised Spirit of Christ entered the body of Christ, the Church, on earth. If one was to say that the Millennium began on the day of Pentecost, then one would also have to conclude that the Millennium ended a thousand years later, in the Middle Ages. There would be no more 'new covenant' from then onwards!

The Millennium should not be confused with the new covenant, but should, l believe, be understood to represent the period of peace that descends on the world when a knowledge of God becomes universal. The key to this must be the nation of Israel, who are the last to accept Christ before his return.

I believe that amillenialism is replacement theology. The church never replaced Israel. God has only had one people-those who live by faith. What is the Millennial Kingdom, and should it be understood literally? | GotQuestions.org

The Bible tells us that when Christ returns to the earth He will establish Himself as king in Jerusalem, sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:32–33). The unconditional covenants demand a literal, physical return of Christ to establish the kingdom. The Abrahamic Covenant promised Israel a land, a posterity and ruler, and a spiritual blessing (Genesis 12:1–3). The Palestinian Covenant promised Israel a restoration to the land and occupation of the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). The Davidic Covenant promised Israel a king from David’s line who would rule forever—giving the nation rest from all their enemies (2 Samuel 7:10–13).
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe that amillenialism is replacement theology. The church never replaced Israel. God has only had one people-those who live by faith. What is the Millennial Kingdom, and should it be understood literally? | GotQuestions.org
I agree that 'old' Israel, the nation, is not replaced, but it's important to remember that not all Jacob is Israel. There will only be a remnant from Jacob that accept Christ by faith. Yet, all Israel (those in Christ) will be saved.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I agree that 'old' Israel, the nation, is not replaced, but it's important to remember that not all Jacob is Israel. There will only be a remnant from Jacob that accept Christ by faith. Yet, all Israel (those in Christ) will be saved.

Jiziakhu Ben David is not the Messiah. Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Jiziakhu Ben David is not the Messiah. Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I agree, there is only one Messiah, Jesus Christ.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I agree that 'old' Israel, the nation, is not replaced, but it's important to remember that not all Jacob is Israel. There will only be a remnant from Jacob that accept Christ by faith. Yet, all Israel (those in Christ) will be saved.

I believe that there are hints even with rabbinic Judaism of concepts that are elaborated upon in the New Testament. The book of Enoch and Watchers mention Satan as an evil spirit, and not as an angel on the divine council of angels. When the Jews were in captivity, they walked away from God and worshipped false gods and evil spirits. That's why the book of Job doesn't mention Satan as clearly as the devil than the New Testament does-God revealed those concepts after the Jewish people returned from exile. The references to Satan as an evil spirit in certain Jewish beliefs exists because even in the Old Testament it is underlied. Job 2:3 says And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I believe that there are hints even with rabbinic Judaism of concepts that are elaborated upon in the New Testament. The book of Enoch and Watchers mention Satan as an evil spirit, and not as an angel on the divine council of angels. When the Jews were in captivity, they walked away from God and worshipped false gods and evil spirits. That's why the book of Job doesn't mention Satan as clearly as the devil than the New Testament does-God revealed those concepts after the Jewish people returned from exile. The references to Satan as an evil spirit in certain Jewish beliefs exists because even in the Old Testament it is underlied. Job 2:3 says And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Without doubt, we find many helpful truths in extra biblical material. The difficulty is determining which bits build our understanding and which bits are a deviation from the truth of scripture and the Holy Spirit! I find this to be the case when l read the Talmud.

From what l have read, the book of Enoch also contains references to the 'day as a thousand years', and may have been a source that helped influence certain rabbis in their exegesis of the Tanakh.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Without doubt, we find many helpful truths in extra biblical material. The difficulty is determining which bits build our understanding and which bits are a deviation from the truth of scripture and the Holy Spirit! I find this to be the case when l read the Talmud.

From what l have read, the book of Enoch also contains references to the 'day as a thousand years', and may have been a source that helped influence certain rabbis in their exegesis of the Tanakh.

I believe that extra biblical material mixes truth and lies. We can't trust it, we can only trust the Bible.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Don't mix your scripture with modern day geopolitical realities.
Israel is a settler colonial state which has made international enemies by committing atrocities locally and allying itself with American imperialism.
No, it’s not. It is a secular state of Jews living in their ancestral homeland.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sorry to tell you but being 'secular' doesn't make the apartheid or the imperialism disappear.
Apartheid was a system used in South Africa. It has nothing to do with the State of Israel. Jews living in the land of Israel aren’t colonists. They are native inhabitants.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?

Psalm 83:1-5
'Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
They have taken crafty counsel against thy hidden ones.
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee
:'
It's about God's hidden nation. If anyone think Israel in middle east is right with God then they're blind. But not to put Israelis down. Just saying. They are like every other nation. They do wrong, they do some good. They are just human.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It's about God's hidden nation. If anyone think Israel in middle east is right with God then they're blind. But not to put Israelis down. Just saying. They are like every other nation. They do wrong, they do some good. They are just human.

I agree that 'all Israel' cannot be saved unless lsrael refers to Christ. Only the remnant of Jacob will be saved because some will not accept Christ.

In Romans 11, Paul makes it clear that 'blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles is come in.'
This suggests to me that we will see a great movement in the land of lsrael to Christ. The first will be last!

I believe that the land of lsrael, as promised to their fathers, is a significant land on earth. I do not think it's a coincidence that the biblical prophecies of a return to the land have started to be fulfilled.
 

John1.12

Free gift
Are the enemies of Israel also the enemies of God?

Psalm 83:1-5
'Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
They have taken crafty counsel against thy hidden ones.
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee
:'
Romans 11 .
25¶For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Romans 11 .
25¶For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Yet only a remnant of 'old' lsrael, or Jacob, will be saved.

Yes, l believe that all lsrael will be saved, but only in the sense that lsrael is in Christ.

Those outside of Christ are not saved.
 
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