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firedragon

Veteran Member
Speaking only personally (not for what others will do or not) I will rather die my self than killing an other human being. that is just how i am. And yes i have been in a situation where i could have died if i did a wrong move. I do not know is that is reason enough to hold a view that killing is wrong in any situation. But it has become my personal view. Is it a wrong view? it could be, i do not know :)

You never know brother. You never know.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Hatred can never be overcome with hatred. Hatred can only be overcome with love. This is a universal law.

- The Dhammapada
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hatred can never be overcome with hatred. Hatred can only be overcome with love. This is a universal law.

- The Dhammapada

Thats wrong translation really. The word hatred seems okay, although it should be something like anger towards someone which is more appropriate. Nevertheless, the word "love" is absolutely inappropriate there.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hatred can never be overcome with hatred. Hatred can only be overcome with love. This is a universal law.

- The Dhammapada

Out of curiosity Restlesssoul, could you please give me an idea which translation you used? This is a personal request if you dont mind.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity Restlesssoul, could you please give me an idea which translation you used? This is a personal request if you dont mind.



Translation by Jao Mascaro, though I have seen other translations, all of which use the words hatred and love.


I have no Sanskrit though, so have to trust the translators.
 
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passerby

Member
What if the "goal" is to not be a part of humanity but rise above it? Can we still hold on to hate or dislike for others ? :confused:

We cannot rise above our humanity. We can only strive to be perfect but only God is perfect. Recently I came into contact with an old childhood friend- at first it was great to be back in touch, but gradually I came to realise I didn't like this person. She really wound me up. I really wanted to get on with her and thought I'd failed because as hard as I tried I couldn't. After a lot of thought and prayer I decided the only thing to do was back off. It was doing neither of us any good. Now I feel the best and maybe only thing is to avoid people who provoke those sorts of feelings in me. I wish her no harm, but there is no point in trying to like her. Avoiding toxic and hurtful people shows we love ourselves and are limited in what we can do for them. Leave that to God.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Translation by Jao Mascaro, though I have seen other translations, all of which use the words hatred and love.

Is that Juan Mascaro? I have not read his translation.

One thing I would like to state is that translating this particular verse in the Dhammapada, he has erred. Or at least he has made interpretations, not translation. For example, it does not say "hatred'. It is vairaya. Verena. It means anger towards a person. Of course you could interpret it as hatred, but when you think from the language, it actually means a little different. Thats alright.

Love??? The word here is Avairaya or averena. It does not mean love. No way. It is the non-existence of anger. Do you understand? Non-existence of anger does not mean love. He has interpreted it as love for what ever reason. It is wrong.

This verse is in the Dhammapada, which is in the Khuddaka Nikaaya of the Sutra Pitaka. Love is Prema, and the translator has not understood the background of this writing.

In order to understand what this says, it is very important to make this distinction. Yet, I just took the liberty to correct this. No offence. And you gave a fabulous verse, one of the most famous ones.

Just following through, the last part of that translation "universal law" is wrong in my opinion. There is nothing about universal in the verse. It is siddhantha, or root, or even fundamental. Not universal. Some times you could think of it as "Old" or existing from the beginning.

Cheers.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
What other translations? Please quote.


Couldn’t tell you off the top of my head, as I’m at work. I have another translation at home, can’t remember who by I’m afraid.

If you can recommend a particular English translation, I’d be grateful.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
For example, it does not say "hatred'. It is vairaya. Verena. It means anger towards a person.
Just following through, the last part of that translation "universal law" is wrong in my opinion. There is nothing about universal in the verse. It is siddhantha, or root, or even fundamental. Not universal. Some times you could think of it as "Old" or existing from the beginning.
Nice, I did not know that you are a scholar of Buddhism. 'Vairya' and 'avairya' in Sanskrit mean enmity or absence of it.
Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Couldn’t tell you off the top of my head, as I’m at work. I have another translation at home, can’t remember who by I’m afraid.

If you can recommend a particular English translation, I’d be grateful.

I honestly don't know brother. I will have to ask someone. But if I do and get one, I will share with you. I checked up another translation by Max Muller which reads the same as yours.

One thing I can say confidently is that the translation is wrong. It is interpretation, not translation.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I honestly don't know brother. I will have to ask someone. But if I do and get one, I will share with you. I checked up another translation by Max Muller which reads the same as yours.

One thing I can say confidently is that the translation is wrong. It is interpretation, not translation.


I think there is an element of interpretation in all translation, because so many words and phrases in a particular language have no direct equivalent in another.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I think there is an element of interpretation in all translation, because so many words and phrases in a particular language have no direct equivalent in another.

Absolutely. But this is plain wrong. I understand that there is always interpretation when translating from a language so foreign like Pali to English. But the use of the word love is the exact opposite. I dont know whether to call it interpretation or projection.

Let me give you an example of an interpretation.

Sutta Pitaka, Khuddhaka Nikaya, Dammapada, yamaka vaggo, verse 5 you quoted. It speaks of "averen" or "avairaya". A translation would be "the non-existence of anger", yet an interpretation would be "Shanthi or calm due to shedding of anger". Love, is a mistranslation. Hatred is an interpretation.

Anyway, we would end up going in circles. I am just on a rant because this surprised me. I dont know which world I have been living in but I have in my life never seen that interpretation. Maybe because Buddhism is discussed so rarely that I have not come across this type of translation, and according to you, there are many.

Anyway, thanks for the information. Appreciate it.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Question: if you loved every human being unconditionally, would you be able to kill someone who did not love unconditionally? I would not be able to kill an other human being, even now when i still am unable to love fully unconditionally

We could just stop the person from killing everyone. Maybe send him to an island or lock him away. Whichever way you look at it, loving everyone can be a tough job especially if not everyone else is the same. Having to protect people from the injustices of others can make me look like I do not love the person I am stopping from being mean.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
We could just stop the person from killing everyone. Maybe send him to an island or lock him away. Whichever way you look at it, loving everyone can be a tough job especially if not everyone else is the same. Having to protect people from the injustices of others can make me look like I do not love the person I am stopping from being mean.
We do not need to love their action or words :) but the human as a human in my view
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Is it possible to love all people unconditionally?
I do not speak of love as falling in love with an other human being. But to not be able to hold any hate toward anyone ?

Arnold Schwarzenegger tried to do that (love everyone). In fact, the maid's son is the spitting image of him.

True love doesn't involve just satisfying lust (though those in love satisfy every aspect of their lives with each other). The caring that we have for all of society is very special.

I see kids come out of a Catholic church, then toss candy wrappers on the ground. Sure, it's pollution, but it is an even worse type of pollution....pollution of the soul. It means that they don't care enough about other people to keep the world a tidy place.

To hate is to judge.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged" (Jesus, Sermon on the Mount).

Yet, if we don't judge God and Jesus, we would not judge them to be good and wholesome. If we don't judge the devil, we won't recognize him. If we don't judge someone who is "fightin' evil" we might mistake them for a righteous man, rather than a tool of the devil who makes wars against innocent nations.

We, therefore, have to judge, in our own hearts, but just not bad-mouth others publicly. For example, when President W. Bush called various Iraqis names (Dr. Evil, Dr. Death, et al) he motivated wars against them, and that killed perhaps a million innocent Iraqi people (some were innocent women and children). Of course, that also involved "bearing false witness" (taboo under the 10 commandments).

If we don't judge others, we follow them, and that harms others (it is sinning).

The ability not to hate someone is also the ability to ignore their crimes, and to aid and abet them in further crimes.
 
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