Love the sinner hate the sin

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we all have some bias and judgements somewhere in our hearts that without reflection we may suppress it, deny it, or just plain say I will not change...so others just deal with it.

I think I have that,not the last one since I've never been that type of person. But maybe the first. But I think true spiritual reflection puts you face to face with yourself.

I have a huge issue with "love the sinner, hate the sin" (homosexuality) because...

Analogies.

It's more like you support your friend to come out of the closet but don't support him for the meaning of it.

You only support your friend getting married (not civil union) but not for the nature of the marriage is founded just the sexes of the spouses.

You support your friend with the idea of buying a new car but you only do so depending on how he drives and whose in the passenger seat.

You don't have to like same sex sex (which s NOT homosexuality). I find make male sss a bit uncomfortable myself.

But as a lesbian,I know there is a difference between the action, the sexes, and intent.

If two men love each other, same sex sex isn't wrong. If they hurt each other (to put it lightly), then it is.

The argument of lgbtq really goes beyond one's sex.

Just a ravel not a sermon.

 

[InChrist]

I don’t think your perspective or the examples you gave accurately express what Christians mean when they say something like “ hate the sin, love the sinner “.
From a biblical perspective, each person is created in the image of God; valuable and loved by God, so we are to love one another. Sin is destructive and has marred the image of God and identity of each person in one way or another. So to hate the sin (whatever it is) means to hate that which is tarnishing and harming the true image and identity God intended. Real love ultimately wants the best for the person.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

In the end, I think we would all agree that we value a human life, but what we wouldn't value from such a human life would be something like murder, or thievery for personal gain, etc. Meaning that, obviously, there are examples within which you may care for the PERSON, but not for the activities they have chosen to partake in. So, the root of meaning in "hate the sin, love the sinner" does make some sense, and does reflect real-world circumstances of judgment we may all find ourselves in at some time or another - and is definitely something we could rationalize our way into given various egregious, detrimental acts.

However - in the specific case of homosexuality - we're talking about a union of two people (whether sexual or not) of the same sex who have both consented to be in that relationship. There is no "crime against humanity" being committed here at all. Not in any way. Those who claim that there is are delusional in my opinion - and their reasoning on the topic the stuff of conspiracy theories. NONE of us should care one bit what constitutes "sin" to any other individual. NONE of us. Period. "Sin" is, specifically, going against God's (or a god's) chosen ideals. And none of us should care about any god's chosen ideals either. What something calling itself "God" wants to say about human behavior is entirely irrelevant. If any of us actually chose to be here on Earth, and before that, chose "God" as our leader, then sure - those people (note, there are NONE who fit this description) should probably listen to Him (provided He also shows up and makes His views clear, of course) - whatever floats your boat. But otherwise, all one has when born into this world to turn to are the other humans around him/herself for guidance - as babies, we humans are basically useless to those around us, and so we necessarily must rely on those around us to survive. God is NOT one of "those around us." And so in my book, God simply doesn't get a say. He can stuff His opinion into His heavenly hell hole for all it should matter to any of us - that is, provided He exists to go shoving opinions various places - which has certainly not been determined in the first place to even suggest that we should be worried about "sin."

 

[SigurdReginson]

Meh... The "Love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality is harmful, imo, and it's one of the main reasons I left christianity.

In theory it makes sense, since we are all sinners (according to christianity), so no one can judge anyone else. In practice, it's taking something fundamental about the way someone is born (who they are or aren't physically attracted to), and lumping it together with behaviors such as stealing or lying, and then treating them all the same. This is why many christians view LGBTQ issues as "lifestyles" - they think they are behaviors people can change. It also makes it easier to dismiss people who are LGBTQ as "living in sin" without giving any deeper thought or consideration into what's actually going on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It really is a form of being a patronizing jerk. They try to say it's something like a drug addiction, because you can love the user and not the addiction. But addiction is an illness, and the body and mind are not healthy. So when they throw this out to condemn homosexuals (where we generally see this, sometimes even specifically men as some of them deny two women can have sex) we are still seeing the same base mentality. Especially considering they don't say this to the remarried. They don't use it for the adulterous. Sloth, greed, and gluttony don't get this line of thought either. And it is very likely because they church for so long in contemporary America has singled out homosexuality and the passages that forbid men from having sex with men like none other.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don’t think your perspective or the examples you gave accurately express what Christians mean when they say something like “ hate the sin, love the sinner “.

From a biblical perspective, each person is created in the image of God; valuable and loved by God, so we are to love one another. Sin is destructive and has marred the image of God and identity of each person in one way or another. So to hate the sin (whatever it is) means to hate that which is tarnishing and harming the true image and identity God intended. Real love ultimately wants the best for the person.

What is that love based on?

In the human world, if you love someone and say you do, you love Who they are-their identity. The problem is associating the sinner to the sin (in homosexuality case) just as one would a murder to a murderer or child molestation to a child molester. The association is inappropriate, and because it is inappropriateness, a christian would be loving the idea of who they feel their friend is and does not how their friend sees himself. I think its called double standard or hypocrisy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Meh... The "Love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality is harmful, imo, and it's one of the main reasons I left christianity.

In theory it makes sense, since we are all sinners (according to christianity), so no one can judge anyone else. In practice, it's taking something fundamental about the way someone is born (who they are or aren't physically attracted to), and lumping it together with behaviors such as stealing or lying, and then treating them all the same. This is why many christians view LGBTQ issues as "lifestyles" - they think they are behaviors people can change. It also makes it easier to dismiss people who are LGBTQ as "living in sin" without giving any deeper thought or consideration into what's actually going on.

There ya go. My OP in one lump some.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In the end, I think we would all agree that we value a human life, but what we wouldn't value from such a human life would be something like murder, or thievery for personal gain, etc. Meaning that, obviously, there are examples within which you may care for the PERSON, but not for the activities they have chosen to partake in. So, the root of meaning in "hate the sin, love the sinner" does make some sense, and does reflect real-world circumstances of judgment we may all find ourselves in at some time or another - and is definitely something we could rationalize our way into given various egregious, detrimental acts.

However - in the specific case of homosexuality - we're talking about a union of two people (whether sexual or not) of the same sex who have both consented to be in that relationship. There is no "crime against humanity" being committed here at all. Not in any way. Those who claim that there is are delusional in my opinion - and their reasoning on the topic the stuff of conspiracy theories. NONE of us should care one bit what constitutes "sin" to any other individual. NONE of us. Period. "Sin" is, specifically, going against God's (or a god's) chosen ideals. And none of us should care about any god's chosen ideals either. What something calling itself "God" wants to say about human behavior is entirely irrelevant. If any of us actually chose to be here on Earth, and before that, chose "God" as our leader, then sure - those people (note, there are NONE who fit this description) should probably listen to Him (provided He also shows up and makes His views clear, of course) - whatever floats your boat. But otherwise, all one has when born into this world to turn to are the other humans around him/herself for guidance - as babies, we humans are basically useless to those around us, and so we necessarily must rely on those around us to survive. God is NOT one of "those around us." And so in my book, God simply doesn't get a say. He can stuff His opinion into His heavenly hell hole for all it should matter to any of us - that is, provided He exists to go shoving opinions various places - which has certainly not been determined in the first place to even suggest that we should be worried about "sin."

The only time it matters is when these beliefs harm other people. In themselves, it's fine. The consequence of the line of thinking, well...

 

[InChrist]

What is that love based on?

In the human world, if you love someone and say you do, you love Who they are-their identity. The problem is associating the sinner to the sin (in homosexuality case) just as one would a murder to a murderer or child molestation to a child molester. The association is inappropriate, and because it is inappropriateness, a christian would be loving the idea of who they feel their friend is and does not how their friend sees himself. I think its called double standard or hypocrisy.

I think God’s love or Agape love which is the highest form of love is based in God Himself and a person’s true identity is only found in God the Creator.

People find their identity in all sorts of things which I don’t think are the places God wants our identity to be. They are distracts from the ultimate goal.
Here’s a linked account of someone who found his identity , if you’re interested...

 

[sun rise]

To me, that phrase too often is limited to LGBTQ people.

"sin" in Christianity is much much broader and to me involves violating any of the 10 Commandments.

Can a Christian love the murderer, the greedy and so forth? Can the anti-abortion Christian love the doctor who does abortions? Can a right-wing Evangelical love AOC while thinking of her politics as sinful?

I'd bet I would not run out of fingers and toes counting those who meet that standard.

(And I consider LGBTQ people as being who they are and not as a sinners).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think God’s love or Agape love which is the highest form of love is based in God Himself and a person’s true identity is only found in God the Creator.

People find their identity in all sorts of things which I don’t think are the places God wants our identity to be. They are distracts from the ultimate goal.
Here’s a linked account of someone who found his identity , if you’re interested...

I'm watching it...but this is why you can't love the sinner and hate the sin. Its stereotyping a group of people based on how the christian defines him not how he defines himself.

The video has to do with him changing his life from being partying, drinking, and having sex with men to someone more godly because of what was told to him in scripture.

It's making a association based on "his" experience that who he was attracted to somehow lead him to sin.

In reality, it is a stereotype. The sex of the other person does not lead to sin. It's the intention of the sex itself that could. A person cannot love another he or she redefines.

 

[InChrist]

I'm watching it...but this is why you can't love the sinner and hate the sin. Its stereotyping a group of people based on how the christian defines him not how he defines himself.

The video has to do with him changing his life from being partying, drinking, and having sex with men to someone more godly because of what was told to him in scripture.

It's making a association based on "his" experience that who he was attracted to somehow lead him to sin.

In reality, it is a stereotype. The sex of the other person does not lead to sin. It's the intention of the sex itself that could. A person cannot love another he or she redefines.

I don’t think it can be called a stereotype because it is his actual experience and reality concerning where his identity was as a homosexual; identifying himself according to his sexual attraction, rather than finding his identity in God.

I am not of the opinion that a person’s attraction or behavior defines what is or is not sin. I believe God as the Creator defines what is sin.

 

[Valjean]

Is this old adage really how Christians are supposed to behave? It never has been, from what I can see, and doesn't strike me very practicable.
Hate the rape but love the rapist? Hate Auschwitz but love the SS officers? Really?

 

[InChrist]

Is this old adage really how Christians are supposed to behave? It never has been, from what I can see, and doesn't strike me very practicable.
Hate the rape but love the rapist? Hate Auschwitz but love the SS officers? Really?

You are right, that’s why generalized, blanket statements or methods don’t work well. Each person and situation is unique.
I personally would have a hard time loving someone who abused and molested a child. If they truly were sorry and wanted to change, maybe I could forgive, but a huge part of loving that person would include that they are NEVER to be around a child alone again.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is this old adage really how Christians are supposed to behave? It never has been, from what I can see, and doesn't strike me very practicable.
Hate the rape but love the rapist? Hate Auschwitz but love the SS officers? Really?

The the bible puts homosexuals in there. Some christians I came across on RF, not all, related them with such.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don’t think it can be called a stereotype because it is his actual experience and reality concerning where his identity was as a homosexual; identifying himself according to his sexual attraction, rather than finding his identity in God.

I am not of the opinion that a person’s attraction or behavior defines what is or is not sin. I believe God as the Creator defines what is sin.

With the movie, though, it's about his personal experience and how he personally called himself as he changed his lifestyle (drinking, sex, etc) to be with god. To many christians, homosexuality falls into this.

In reality, all he did was changed his lifestyle to correlate with his religious beliefs. He stopped drinking. Stopped having sex. And started worshiping.

That's fine. That's actually not the issue. He changed his "behavior" to be with god.

The problem is homosexuality is not a behavior. Not everyone is like this guy and not all of people who have same sex sex also drink, and have fun. They real relationships. Real marriages. and so forth. Many of whom are christian both themselves and their spouses and they follow god and not their flesh.

Its a stereotype because it hooks same sex sex=lust, drinking, fun and lust.

 

[Kenny]

I don’t think your perspective or the examples you gave accurately express what Christians mean when they say something like “ hate the sin, love the sinner “.
From a biblical perspective, each person is created in the image of God; valuable and loved by God, so we are to love one another. Sin is destructive and has marred the image of God and identity of each person in one way or another. So to hate the sin (whatever it is) means to hate that which is tarnishing and harming the true image and identity God intended. Real love ultimately wants the best for the person.

Well said.

 

[InChrist]

With the movie, though, it's about his personal experience and how he personally called himself as he changed his lifestyle (drinking, sex, etc) to be with god. To many christians, homosexuality falls into this.

In reality, all he did was changed his lifestyle to correlate with his religious beliefs. He stopped drinking. Stopped having sex. And started worshiping.

That's fine. That's actually not the issue. He changed his "behavior" to be with god.

The problem is homosexuality is not a behavior. Not everyone is like this guy and not all of people who have same sex sex also drink, and have fun. They real relationships. Real marriages. and so forth. Many of whom are christian both themselves and their spouses and they follow god and not their flesh.

Its a stereotype because it hooks same sex sex=lust, drinking, fun and lust.

I think I understand what you are saying. I realize that not all same sex relationships are just about lust, sex drinking or a loose lifestyle. There those which are seriously caring with committed individuals.
For me the it’s not about what I or the culture says is okay or what feels right or what love is. I think God as the Creator and Designer knows what is best for human relationships.

 

[Kenny]

I think we all have some bias and judgements somewhere in our hearts that without reflection we may suppress it, deny it, or just plain say I will not change...so others just deal with it.

I think I have that,not the last one since I've never been that type of person. But maybe the first. But I think true spiritual reflection puts you face to face with yourself.

I have a huge issue with "love the sinner, hate the sin" (homosexuality) because...

Analogies.

It's more like you support your friend to come out of the closet but don't support him for the meaning of it.

You only support your friend getting married (not civil union) but not for the nature of the marriage is founded just the sexes of the spouses.

You support your friend with the idea of buying a new car but you only do so depending on how he drives and whose in the passenger seat.

You don't have to like same sex sex (which s NOT homosexuality). I find make male sss a bit uncomfortable myself.

But as a lesbian,I know there is a difference between the action, the sexes, and intent.

If two men love each other, same sex sex isn't wrong. If they hurt each other (to put it lightly), then it is.

The argument of lgbtq really goes beyond one's sex.

Just a ravel not a sermon.View attachment 49512

I like putting it in a "me" situation rather than always addressing a situation that belongs to someone else.

Before knowing Jesus, my father, while married to my mother, decided to have an affair with other women. That practice was destructive in that it ended up with a divorce spiraling the 5 offsprings into various consequences of a destroyed home.

Now, I personally hated the act of unfaithfulness and what it did to the 5 brothers and sisters... but that didn't change the fact that I loved my dad. So, as an analogy, I hated the sin but loved the sinner, my father.

So, I'm not sure why that saying is necessarily "wrong".

It isn't that I judged my father because had it not been for Jesus, I would have followed his footsteps.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think I understand what you are saying. I realize that not all same sex relationships are just about lust, sex drinking or a loose lifestyle. There those which are seriously caring with committed individuals.
For me the it’s not about what I or the culture says is okay or what feels right or what love is. I think God as the Creator and Designer knows what is best for human relationships.

To tell you honestly (I'm not a hierarchical person if I believed in a creator), I find some cultures have a much more grounding on commitment isn't defined by sex than many abrahamic religions do. On the outside, it makes it seem if god said jump, people would jump.

Can a christian see commitment between two men if that commitment was the same as male/female despite the sex; or, does sex decide the nature of the commitment (to god) regardless if they are the same from a heart-point of view?

Kinda hard to understand how the christian god defines commitment by one's sex and not the nature of one's heart and commitment (christian or not). Setting aside cultural stereotypes and sex-oriented uneasiness makes it difficult to talk about it.