JWs & The Bible

[nPeace]

JW’s are Bible students.....not all of us have the capacity for deep study, but we are encouraged to research everything as deeply as we can to add detail to the “big picture”. Like the pixels that make up an image, the more pixels you have, the clearer the picture becomes. JW’s study the Bible in HD.

You see, when you have a jig-saw puzzle with literally hundreds of pieces, you need the (big) picture on the lid of the box to know where to put all the pieces. There is no point in having all those pieces if we cannot connect them to the rest of the puzzle.

I hope that explains our approach.

We don’t study like that. A surface knowledge in the Bible is called “the milk” that we need when we are infants.....but milk is not what will keep us growing. If we can’t get into the “solid food” of the word, then our spiritual development will be stunted.

We are trying to lay a foundation so that you can develop the 'teeth' you need for chewing on the 'meat', because it seems to me like you want to by-pass this necessary step and tackle the meat before you’ve got the ‘choppers’, or learned to digest the milk.


If you just want a plate of meat, we can give you that, but I don’t think that will give you any appreciation about why you need the teeth to chew it.......without a foundation to build on, you will not understand much of the reason why God has conducted this ‘object lesson’ called life, of which we are all a part, in a world that is alienated from the Creator. Instead we have a mish-mash of gods and religious beliefs that clearly cause confusion for the majority. We have to know what our choices are, and why we need to make them with all the available knowledge. Where did all these 'gods' and conflicting beliefs come from?

The dual fulfillment means that much of what Jesus predicted would be seen in both instances. The “disgusting thing” in the first century was the Roman army with their standards flying, (glorifying their own gods) and breaching the walls of Jerusalem and eventually destroying the accepted form of worship of the Jews, (God's people) along with the main symbol of God’s presence among them....their temple. This could only happen by God's permission.

So what is the “disgusting thing” in our day? There is a parallel in noting what causes the foretold ‘desolation’ of “Babylon the great”, (named after original “Babylon” which was the place where all false religion began). This is a world empire built by the devil to encompass all the various forms of worship that is in opposition to the true God. He does not care who you worship as long as its not Jehovah. All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to the devil by default.

Christendom by its adoption of false religious doctrines has made itself part of that empire...yet she still views herself as "God's people", just like the Jews did......they did not discern that God had abandoned them, and Christendom doesn't either.

Revelation 18:1-3 tells us about her "fallen" status and how she appears to God....like an immoral prostitute currying favor with the world and its rulers....and providing profit for the commercial system. She displays her opulent wealth in her many temples, devoted to their false gods, whist the poor among their nations continue to suffer.
In his address to the Athenians Paul said...
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples." Christians were never told to build them.....yet Christendom has hundreds of huge temples and cathedrals all over the world. Jesus would not have set foot in any of them.

Revelation 18:4-5 is thus a command for God's "people" to get out of “Babylon the great” because God is going to destroy her.....just as Jesus commanded his disciples to get out of Jerusalem before his Father allowed the Jewish system to end, by the hand of the Romans (his purpose in connection with their Messiah, was fully accomplished despite their rejection of him).

What do we then have to look forward to after the events of Daniel 2:44?

Sounds good to me.....

Sounds good to me too.
I think if persons want to have a Bible study, they know that JWs offer them free, and there is even an interactive one online.
People who want to examine the Bible woud need to acknowledge that we need help from someone.
Even an Ethiopian Eunuch recognized this.

(Acts 8:30, 31) 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him.

Even though this man was a worshiper ... He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and was sitting in his chariot, reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. (Acts 8:27, 28), he acknowledge that God must have a means of feeding people - helping them to understand the deep things of God - the meat.

It was the same with the noble-minded Beroeans
(Acts 17:11, 12) 11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12 Therefore, many of them became believers, and so did quite a few of the reputable Greek women as well as some of the men.

Until persons can see that according to the Bible, it is important to identify the channel God is using, and understand that he is indeed using one, they will evidently, continue to grope around, coming up with their own ideas, while opposing God's people.

People don't like to hear it, but JWs do declare that they are feeding from that channel, and that their organization is the only one God is using to dispense truth from his word. From the scriptures, we see that Phillip belonged to the Christian congregation, in association with the GB in Jerusalem at that time.

John was a member of the GB, and he was not afraid to say...
1 John 5:19-21
19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. 20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting. 21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

1 John 4:6
We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. . . .

Does anyone get vexed with John, for saying those things.
The GB members know that they belong to God, and that they are given the responsibility to channel God's truth to individuals.
Which is why they are the only ones who declare that.

There is no other religious group I know of, that says, 'we alone have the truth, and we need to stay separate from the other religions, which are false' -
(2 Corinthians 6:14-18) 14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

That's the exact same warning given in Revelation 18:4, which you mentioned Deeje. False religion is so disgusting to God, that it repulses his people, and God "aint playing", when it comes to her atrocious idolatry and false religious ideas, which make people drunk and stumbling about to their spiritual death.

I asked @Brian2 three times... I think you noticed... I asked him Apart from Jehovah's Witnesses, which organization on earth do you know of that does these things, or compares? You notice he has not answered up to now.

We both know he does not think there is any one religion that has or is a channel of truth. So that rules him out, right away, as one who knows what the GB both in the first century and now know from scripture,
I don't know if @Pete in Panama would say differently, but I know that Bahais do not agree that one should get out from false religion. Why, they are one with all religion, in offering prayer to their gods to bring world peace.

So I agree totally with what you said. Evidently, some just don't have the choppers required to chew this meat. It's more likely to choke them.
I guess that's why some spit it out, and claim, "disgusting!" @Brian2, is that you?

 

[metis]

John was a member of the GB, and he was not afraid to say...

Where was the GB in the 2nd-4th centuries?

 

[Deeje]

Perhaps I misspoke.

What I'm trying to say it that when Jesus was asked about the end times he said (among other things) we should look at what Gabriel told Daniel. Please tell me if u agree w/ this take & tell me if u'd like to work w/ me like colleagues to see what's there.

The only thing I can suggest here is to be more specific Pete.....your vague references to Daniel are not getting to the nitty gritty and we are both getting frustrated. I can’t work with you unless I know the direction you’d like this discussion to take......not like herding cats but like herding the wind....we seem to be talking past each other.

Tell me please what it is specifically that Gabriel told Daniel that I have not already explained in detail.....?

If you want to examine deep prophesy, then you have to know what the Bible says as it interacts with other scripture and fit it into the big picture.....it’s all one story.....do you have a big picture to begin with?

 

[nPeace]

Where was the GB in the 2nd-4th centuries?

That's an excellent question metis.
(Acts 20:29, 30) 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

(2 Peter 2:1) However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

(1 Timothy 4:1) However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,

(2 Timothy 4:3, 4) 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

(1 John 2:18, 19) 18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

What do you think happened to the GB after John died?
The apostles all gave the prophecies and they came true.
(2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

All you need to do is identify the "man of lawlessness", and I think you should be covered where this question is concerned. You can then move forward from there.
You likely would want to know, "Well when did they resurface, if they did, and how would we know?"
Here is an article that might help. There are tons of article, but I quickly chose one.
If you are interested is taking a closer look at the scriptures, we can do that.

Actually we (not you and I, but we here) were discussing Matthew 24 a while ago, and Christ's parousia - his presence in kingdom power. That seems to be a good time for some major changes on earth.
What followed during Christ's enthronement must have been some really exciting times for those of God's people - followers o Christ - who were keeping on the watch, for what their Lord prophesied.

The Devil certainly had plans as well.
(Revelation 12:13-13:1) 13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. 17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.

13 1 And it stood still on the sand of the sea.. . .

Wow. Exciting times indeed.

 

[Pete in Panama]

The only thing I can suggest here is to be more specific Pete.....your vague references to Daniel are not getting to the nitty gritty and we are both getting frustrated. I can’t work with you unless I know the direction you’d like this discussion to take......not like herding cats but like herding the wind....we seem to be talking past each other.

Tell me please what it is specifically that Gabriel told Daniel that I have not already explained in detail.....?

If you want to examine deep prophesy, then you have to know what the Bible says as it interacts with other scripture and fit it into the big picture.....it’s all one story.....do you have a big picture to begin with?

You're absolutely right that we have to take the Bible as a whole and that it all matters. The source of our confusion here may be the way that y'all draw from other passages before we're agreed on what we're looking at. My sense of our situation is that on the one hand I'd have thought we'd work together as colleagues but that y'all feel threatened for some reason to the point that we can't seem to move forward.

So please accept my sincere thanks for all your concern and care. If by any chance after a while y'all or anyone else lurking would like to proceed w/ me I'd find it most helpful.

 

[nPeace]

@KenS you asked, 'What is the mystery of the Kingdom?' Mark 4:11

I hope you don't mind reading, becase I am going to ask you to do a lot... in the Bible, that is.
However, take your time, because we need to be on the same page, primarily where the scriptures are concerned. So happy reading.

The sacred secret of the kingdom was not known to those living before Christ came, shedding some light on it. It was revealed to the apostles, by spirit, and declared as good news. (Ephesians 3:5-19) (1 Corinthians 2:7-13 ) (Colossians 1:24-29)
The sacred secret of the kingdom involves ...

1) God's purpose (Romans 16:25-27) Which is? (Genesis 3:15) (Ephesians 1:8-14)
2) the seed - Christ in union with the holy ones (Colossians 1:27) - that is the body of Christ, which must be complete, in unison with Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:28) the primary part of the promised seed.
3) people of the nations (Gentiles) being a part of that body (Romans 11:25) (Context - Romans 8:1-11:25) - actually joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with the holy ones in the promise (Ephesians 3:6) of ruling with Christ in his heavenly kingdom. (Romans 8:17) (Galatians 3:29) (Luke 12:32) (2 Timothy 2:12) (Ephesians 1:11-14) (Revelation 5:10) (Revelation 20:6)
4) a rulership by the Messiah with joint rulers in heaven, ruling over subjects on earth.​

Let me know when you are finished, and if we are in agreement with everything stated so far.
* While you may use the expression mystery, I am using sacred secret. We both are referring to the same thing, hopefully. I'm also using holy ones. You'll likely use saints.

 

[Deeje]

You're absolutely right that we have to take the Bible as a whole and that it all matters.

As I said...its all one story, so all scripture intersects with the Bible's overall theme....the Kingdom of God. Why it was necessary, what it will accomplish, and how it "comes"...the only thing we do not know is exactly when.

What do you think the Kingdom is? How does it "come"? (Matthew 6:9-10) What is its purpose?

The source of our confusion here may be the way that y'all draw from other passages before we're agreed on what we're looking at.

I have no idea what it is you want from this discussion. I draw from other passages because they are all related to what Jesus came to preach about. What was that again?

My sense of our situation is that on the one hand I'd have thought we'd work together as colleagues but that y'all feel threatened for some reason to the point that we can't seem to move forward.

"Working together as colleagues".....what does that even mean? To me it means that you are suggesting that we can work this out together when I have already addressed the question (after many years of research) and have found the answer. Do you want a different answer? I'm afraid you won't get one from me or any other JW. If what you want is for us to agree with your own assessment of Jesus' words, then I'm sorry but we have already done the homework. If you don't want to accept our findings then what more can we tell you? You have the option to take it or leave it.

I have never felt "threatened" by anything you have said...what made you think I was? I was trying to lay groundwork so that you understood that prophesy is never just a single sentence in the scriptures or a few words in the Bible....it is so much more than that. You don't seem to be able to even state succinctly what it is that you are after.....there is no clarity in your responses.....the vagueness remains. Why? I still don't actually know what you want....

So please accept my sincere thanks for all your concern and care. If by any chance after a while y'all or anyone else lurking would like to proceed w/ me I'd find it most helpful.

We have only one channel that we believe is directed by God's spirit.....like the Jews in Jesus' day, not all accept the truth when they hear it. They prefer a different "truth"....one that sits better with them....and that is OK. No one can come to an accurate understanding of the Bible unless God is drawing them and revealing things to them by his spirit....that is what the "faithful and wise slave" is for....to "feed" Jesus' sheep their "food at the proper time"......no one can come to their table without an invitation from the Father. (Matthew 24:45; John 6:44, 65)

 

[Brian2]

thanks for the headsup on the history of this thread, my interpretation is that this gives me a chance to explore something I ran into not too long ago w/ some other JW's.

My question was for when me & the other JW's had run into our disagreement was whether the problem was one of us latching onto orthodox dogma and rejecting the truth, or is there an honest difference of understanding here. Fortunately patience I got a lot of. I live out in the middle of a rain forest & it's so nice to chat in English w/ someone.

It is easy to reject Bible teachings because of what we believe, our dogma or the dogma of the group we belong to rejects and can even ignore or alter the meaning of certain passages. We pass this same understanding of certain passage on to people we might be teaching and when it comes up as a point of discussion with someone the honesty about it disappears.
I'm not saying that I do not do the same at times, but with the JWs I have found that I do not get answers for certain things that the Bible says. And with Baha'is, don't get me started on Baha'is and the Bible.
Are you a local rain forest resident and/or why are you there if you are not? Not that there is anything wrong with being in a rainforest. I have a variety of forests surrounding me and some of it is rainforest.

 

[Brian2]

JW’s are Bible students.....not all of us have the capacity for deep study, but we are encouraged to research everything as deeply as we can to add detail to the “big picture”. Like the pixels that make up an image, the more pixels you have, the clearer the picture becomes. JW’s study the Bible in HD.

You see, when you have a jig-saw puzzle with literally hundreds of pieces, you need the (big) picture on the lid of the box to know where to put all the pieces. There is no point in having all those pieces if we cannot connect them to the rest of the puzzle.

I hope that explains our approach.

Of course when you are given the wrong big picture you end up trying to make pieces fit where they were not meant to go. Pieces are left over and pieces are out of place.

 

[Brian2]

How about reading it as it was writen?
Put to death flesh. Made alive spirit.
The contrast leaves no room for your ideas.
However, you want to hold on to your beliefs and ignore the clear teachings in the Bible.
So you can hold on to them... as tightly as you desire.
Sad.

That is not how it is written............Put to death flesh. Made alive spirit. Hmmmmm
Maybe you should tell me what the correct translation is for a start and then remember that we already KNOW that Jesus came came back to life as a man with a body when you try to tell me the opposite.

I'm just interested in the part of the post that deals with what I said, or asked.
You seem to contradict yourself here. Can you clarify?
You say you don't see them as commands or even necessary, and then you say, they are all from the Lord.
Are you talking about two different things or the same things?
What don't you see as necessary? What the Lord commanded?

I did not say "don't see them as commands or even necessary," You misread that.
If Jesus or His disciples did things a certain way in the New Testament that does not mean that Christians have to do things exactly the same way in different places and times.(not that door to door proselytising the way JWs do it is necessarily in the Bible) It is the spreading the gospel that is the command to the church as a whole and not necessarily to each member of the church, who may be called to do other work as their main calling.

Who commissioned that you spread the word, and what way you should or should not do it?
What gospel do you spread, and again, where did you get your instructions?

It was either me or the Lord.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I try to spread the gospel of grace and the gospel of the Kingdom and whatever other name it goes by. I do it when and where God calls me to do it and how He wants me to do it.
Sometimes I defend the gospel and Bible teachings from false teachings.

 

[metis]

That's an excellent question metis.
(Acts 20:29, 30) 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

(2 Peter 2:1) However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

(1 Timothy 4:1) However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,

(2 Timothy 4:3, 4) 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

(1 John 2:18, 19) 18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort.

What do you think happened to the GB after John died?
The apostles all gave the prophecies and they came true.
(2 Thessalonians 2:3-12) 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

All you need to do is identify the "man of lawlessness", and I think you should be covered where this question is concerned. You can then move forward from there.
You likely would want to know, "Well when did they resurface, if they did, and how would we know?"
Here is an article that might help. There are tons of article, but I quickly chose one.
If you are interested is taking a closer look at the scriptures, we can do that.

Actually we (not you and I, but we here) were discussing Matthew 24 a while ago, and Christ's parousia - his presence in kingdom power. That seems to be a good time for some major changes on earth.
What followed during Christ's enthronement must have been some really exciting times for those of God's people - followers o Christ - who were keeping on the watch, for what their Lord prophesied.

The Devil certainly had plans as well.
(Revelation 12:13-13:1) 13 Now when the dragon saw that it had been hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent spewed out water like a river from its mouth after the woman, to cause her to be drowned by the river. 16 But the earth came to the woman’s help, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river that the dragon spewed out from its mouth. 17 So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus.

13 1 And it stood still on the sand of the sea.. . .

Wow. Exciting times indeed.

Here:
Matthew16[17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus created an organization by appointing the Twelve, and they in turn appointed others to spread the Word and to carry on if the end of times didn't come, which it didn't. This organization was maintained and still exists today under Jesus' promise, even though it did splinter over time into several organizations that us the same pattern of the laying on of hands to new appointees that are mentioned on Acts. And they do so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus also promised would guide his Church. And it is this organization that selected the canon of the New Testament in the 4th century that you now use.

Since the "JW's" did not exist until much more recent times, your organization cannot be the one Jesus created and referred to.

 

[nPeace]

It is easy to reject Bible teachings because of what we believe, our dogma or the dogma of the group we belong to rejects and can even ignore or alter the meaning of certain passages. We pass this same understanding of certain passage on to people we might be teaching and when it comes up as a point of discussion with someone the honesty about it disappears.
I'm not saying that I do not do the same at times, but with the JWs I have found that I do not get answers for certain things that the Bible says. And with Baha'is, don't get me started on Baha'is and the Bible.
Are you a local rain forest resident and/or why are you there if you are not? Not that there is anything wrong with being in a rainforest. I have a variety of forests surrounding me and some of it is rainforest.

What answers don't you get for certain things the Bible says?
Name one. Just one, and I will prove that you are lying.
I can even prove it with just a few clicks of the mouse. Go ahead. Let's see you seal your doom.
If one went to jail for every lie they tell here, you would not escape... for sure.

 

[nPeace]

That is not how it is written............Put to death flesh. Made alive spirit. Hmmmmm
Maybe you should tell me what the correct translation is for a start and then remember that we already KNOW that Jesus came came back to life as a man with a body when you try to tell me the opposite.

I posted the correct translation, but you picked out the 0.1 percent you wanted.
Tell me something Brian, and please, this time, no skipping, hopping, or jumping around direct questions.
Let's nip this in the bud once and for all.

1) Are angels spirit or flesh?
2) Do angels materialize physical bodies?
3) Let us say that Jesus was resurrected as spirit, could he materialize physical bodies?
4) When jesus was born on earth, what was he -

a) a human
b) a spirit
c) neither
Please state, if none of those apply, and provide the scripture supporting your answer.​

5) Did Jesus die... Yes or no?
6) Was Jesus raised flesh... Yes or no?

I did not say "don't see them as commands or even necessary," You misread that.

No. I quoted you. However, maybe you deleted the post, or edited it, but I know that's what i read you did type. I was not dreaming. Anyway, I can't find it, so I have no proof. There is only my word against yours.

If Jesus or His disciples did things a certain way in the New Testament that does not mean that Christians have to do things exactly the same way in different places and times.(not that door to door proselytising the way JWs do it is necessarily in the Bible) It is the spreading the gospel that is the command to the church as a whole and not necessarily to each member of the church, who may be called to do other work as their main calling.

Can you show me please, where Jesus gave that command to the church to spread the Gospel?
Can you please show me where the method Jesus and his apostles ended, and another method and message is given?

It was either me or the Lord.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I try to spread the gospel of grace and the gospel of the Kingdom and whatever other name it goes by. I do it when and where God calls me to do it and how He wants me to do it.
Sometimes I defend the gospel and Bible teachings from false teachings.

Can you please tell me what Romans 10:15 means to you?
Can you please tell me what is the gospel you are speaking of?
Can you please tell me whet is the gospel of the kingdom jesus said to preach, and will be preached. Do you preach the Gospel of the Kingdom? Can you please tell me where and when?

 

[nPeace]

Here:
Matthew16[17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Jesus created an organization by appointing the Twelve, and they in turn appointed others to spread the Word and to carry on if the end of times didn't come, which it didn't. This organization was maintained and still exists today under Jesus' promise, even though it did splinter over time into several organizations that us the same pattern of the laying on of hands to new appointees that are mentioned on Acts. And they do so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus also promised would guide his Church. And it is this organization that selected the canon of the New Testament in the 4th century that you now use.

Since the "JW's" did not exist until much more recent times, your organization cannot be the one Jesus created and referred to.

Yes Jesus did chose twelve men whom he wanted to take the lead in organizing the work he started - to spread the Gospel, or good news about the kingdom, and to organize congregation where new disciples were made. I do see that in the scriptures, but, where did you read about carrying "on if the end of times didn't come, which it didn't"?

When you say this organization, what do you mean?
The apostles all died, and corruption did occur as they foretold, so i am not sure where you got that idea from, since we know that apostasy means a deviating away from, and we do from historical writings that the teachings of the the apostolic age was not the same after.
So please explain where you are referencing this idea that the organization Christ was maintained, and how.

Are you saying that Peter is still alive.
I don't think you are saying that, but why did you quote Matthew 16:17-19?
How do you read?
Matthew 16:18 NIV: And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
You are Peter. True. He was speaking to Peter. He use the pronoun You", and Peter was indeed the second person.
However Jesus continued, and on this...
Don't tell me you took this and made it Peter.

Jesus used a demonstrative pronoun, which would be applied to the object Jesus had in mind... which is not conclusively Peter.
Anyone really interested in science would know that, so since you are interested in science, and demonstrable evidence, it would be quite strange if you are arguing that Jesus meant Peter.
Jesus could easily have said, and on you - continuing from his second person usage.

We know that Jesus was referring however, to the Messiah, on whom rested everything related to the kingdom - including the Church.
We know this from the scriptures.
(1 Corinthians 3:11) For no one can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

(Ephesians 2:20) and you have been built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone.

(1 Peter 2:6-8) For it says in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a chosen stone, a precious foundation cornerstone, and no one exercising faith in it will ever be disappointed.” 7 It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “the stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone” 8 and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed.

(1 Corinthians 10:4) and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ.

The rock - foundation cornerstone - was laid before Peter.
Peter used the keys when he received the vision, and spoke to the Gentile, Cornelius - who was the first Gentile to receive holy spirit, showing that the way, was now open for Gentiles to be grafted in to spiritual Israel.

Splinter to several organizations?
Several organizations? I'm sure you know what an organization is. I'm not even going to consider going there with that assertion.
I'll just say there is no scripture that does, or ever will support such a claim.

You need to bring scriptures to support those beliefs you are proposing, because what I see are assertions that cannot be demonstrated.
They are mere claims, evidently from what one believes, but they are not scriptural, as far as I read.
Perhaps you know scriptures you can show me to support them?

 

[Pete in Panama]

It is easy to reject Bible teachings because of what we believe, our dogma or the dogma of the group we belong to rejects and can even ignore or alter the meaning of certain passages...

Just watched a really neat neuropsychology flick on youtube (let me know if u want a link) & in one part the guy was talking about how one side of the brain (iirc the right side) processed fundamental beliefs & the other side did the reevaluation/reality-check to keep the other side honest. So what's been working for me is periodic tours around my psycic house to "check my foundations" to see for example whether erosion or subsurface instability (or the belief/reality equivalent) was a problem.

...the JWs I have found that I do not get answers for certain things that the Bible says...

Not too long ago I had some JW's over & they went thru their spiel + worked w/ me on my recheck of the Bible & I ran into a sort of brick wall. They really did not want to go any further & at the end they were disagreeing w/ everything I said just out of habit. I'd hoped that it could be different here but my take is that they were not even willing to look at what I was seeing.

... And with Baha'is, don't get me started on Baha'is and the Bible...

lol --so I guess that means I can't get specific w/ u about what I was looking at in the Bible! Seriously, what I gather is that given the fact that Baha'i membership is roughly in tune w/ the world in general, the average IQ of the Baha'is is 100. My guess is ur smarter than that. Sure I'm willing to get into what I've found in the Bible but you haven't asked (to my knowledge) & the world is very big w/ a lot of other things to talk about.

...Are you a local rain forest resident and/or why are you there if you are not? Not that there is anything wrong with being in a rainforest. I have a variety of forests surrounding me and some of it is rainforest.

My home is smack dab in the middle of a Panamanian rain forest & I got monkeys, parrots, sloths, iquanas, and orchids all running wild around the place. It's neat but I find I do better when I can chat in English about interesting things.

 

[metis]

When you say this organization, what do you mean?
The apostles all died, and corruption did occur as they foretold, so i am not sure where you got that idea from, since we know that apostasy means a deviating away from, and we do from historical writings that the teachings of the the apostolic age was not the same after.
So please explain where you are referencing this idea that the organization Christ was maintained, and how.

You seriously don't know what you're talking about because the Gospel makes it quite clear that the Church was going to be led by the Holy Spirit per Jesus' promise. What is so difficult for you to understand this as it's right there snack-dab in the scriptures that I posted. And if you read Acts and the epistles it's reinforced time and time again as the Apostles appoint others expand the Church and to take over when their gone.

The word "Church" ["ekklesia"], meaning "congregation" or "community" is used 109 times in the NT, so there's no mystery in what Jesus was doing by creating it and then stating that he would guide it until the end of times. If you cannot accept that, then maybe give your Bible to one who can use and understand it.

 

[nPeace]

You seriously don't know what you're talking about because the Gospel makes it quite clear that the Church was going to be led by the Holy Spirit per Jesus' promise. What is so difficult for you to understand this as it's right there snack-dab in the scriptures that I posted. And if you read Acts and the epistles it's reinforced time and time again as the Apostles appoint others expand the Church and to take over when their gone.

The word "Church" ["ekklesia"], meaning "congregation" or "community" is used 109 times in the NT, so there's no mystery in what Jesus was doing by creating it and then stating that he would guide it until the end of times. If you cannot accept that, then maybe give your Bible to one who can use and understand it.

Where did I say the Church would not be guided by the holy spirit?
Is this a smokescreen to avoid responding coherently to anything I said... or asked?

 

[metis]

Where did I say the Church would not be guided by the holy spirit?
Is this a smokescreen to avoid responding coherently to anything I said... or asked?

Wait a minute, you're not making any sense here. Either the Church is or is not guided by the HS, thus how is it even remotely logical that the Church fell into "apostacy" so as to become "Christendom"?

 

[metis]

I don't think you are saying that, but why did you quote Matthew 16:17-19?
How do you read?
Matthew 16:18 NIV: And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
You are Peter. True. He was speaking to Peter. He use the pronoun You", and Peter was indeed the second person.
However Jesus continued, and on this...
Don't tell me you took this and made it Peter.

Jesus used a demonstrative pronoun, which would be applied to the object Jesus had in mind... which is not conclusively Peter.

In Aramaic, both Peter and stone [or rock] are "Kephas". Prior to that Matthew citation, Jesus had already given Peter his new name, thus that new name must have meant something to Peter and the others. And Jesus says "Thou are Peter...", whereas it's really quite clear that Jesus is making a play on words since Peter already knew his changed name.

Jesus, otoh, is referred to as being the "Cornerstone" for the Church, which is far more important than just being a "rock" ["Kephas"].

 

[nPeace]

Wait a minute, you're not making any sense here. Either the Church is or is not guided by the HS, thus how is it even remotely logical that the Church fell into "apostacy" so as to become "Christendom"?

Quoting your post - post #136

The word "Church" ["ekklesia"], meaning "congregation" or "community" is used 109 times in the NT, so there's no mystery in what Jesus was doing by creating it and then stating that he would guide it until the end of times.

So you agree the Church is the congregation - that is, the body of Christ - all baptized and annointed by holy spirit.
The annointed ones, who were pillars in the congregation said this..."I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves. (Acts 20:29, 30)

This occurred some time around the mid first century.
Later, this annointed one said... "Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it [the presence of the Lord] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [παρουσία, ας, ἡ (parousia)]. But the lawless one’s presence [παρουσία, ας, ἡ (parousia)] is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness. However, we are obligated always to thank God for you, brothers loved by Jehovah, because from the beginning God selected you for salvation by sanctifying you with his spirit and by your faith in the truth. He called you to this through the good news we declare, so that you may acquire the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain your hold on the traditions that you were taught, whether it was by a spoken message or by a letter from us. 16 Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness, 17 comfort your hearts and make you firm in every good deed and word. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-14)

You agreed holy spirit guides Jesus anointed ones.
One who is not guided by holy spirit may kick against this truth, but it's not hard if one gathers where the eagles are.
Paul warned that the holy one who were waiting for the Lord's presence to be careful not to be misled by reports that the Lord's presence had arrived because it would not come before the apostasy, which would be manifest once those holding strain were gone.
Paul say that this lawless one of the apostasy would be done away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [παρουσία, ας, ἡ (parousia)].
Thus, the one sitting in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. would be done away with during the manifestation of Jesus presence.

This is scripture, which was writen as prophecy, by an annointed of Jesus the Messiah.
It is accurate. It happened some time in the future. When?
When was Jesus presence? He told his followers to look for the sign. I discussed that earlier in this thread.
There was a period of time during Christ's rule when the signs were manifest and the things he prophesied would take place.
For example, one of those features of the sign is mentioned at Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

So one of those signs of Jesus presence as ruling king, is the preaching of the kingdom good news in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations... before the end comes.
Mark puts it this way... "Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first." (Mark 13:10)
Not at the end, but before the end.

That's not something needing a PhD to understand. It is God's will that people get a witness. They need to hear the good news of the kingdom. All nations do.
That happens under Christ's direction.

So the apostasy - the man of lawlessness had his time - a long time, when he sat as a god in God's temple..
When did it begin?

If we take the apostles to be truthful here... that is, we believe the Bible, which I do. Do you believe that metis, or is this allegory to you?
Then it is in keeping with the truth, to carefully consider their words, and see where they fit. Like doing science.
So we page through history.

The last of the apostles died around 100 CE / AD... so it is said. What followed.

Catholic Church - Wikipedia
As the world's oldest and largest continuously functioning international institution, it has played a prominent role in the history and development of Western civilisation.
Catholic ... was first used to describe the church in the early 2nd century. The first known use of the phrase "the catholic church" (Greek: καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία, romanized: he katholike ekklesia) occurred in the letter written about 110 AD from Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans. In the Catechetical Lectures (c. 350) of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, the name "Catholic Church" was used to distinguish it from other groups that also called themselves "the church".

The scripture says ... And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time.
True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way.
Was John acting as a restaurant? Did Jesus protect John for this very purpose? (John 21:21-23)
After all, he survived martyrdom, and received the Revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ - a very important scroll, sealing the mysteries, and concluding the script - sort of a finished mystery, in itself.

They Roman Catholic has made this claim...
The history of the Catholic Church begins with the teachings of Jesus Christ, who lived in the 1st century CE in the province of Judea of the Roman Empire. The contemporary Catholic Church says that it is the continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus.

Contrary to this claim, the history of the church began with the teachings of the men Paul and Peter spoke of.
(2 Peter 2:1) However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

The evidence again can be seen in the trail they left in history.
The preaching and teaching of the Gospel of the kingdom of God is nowhere to be found in their message.
Catholic Church - Wikipedia

The Shield of the Trinity or Scutum Fidei (Latin for "shield of faith") is a traditional Christian visual symbol which expresses many aspects of the doctrine of the Trinity, summarizing the first part of the Athanasian Creed in a compact diagram. In late medieval Europe, this emblem was considered to be the heraldic arms of God (and of the Trinity).

The Trinity was not taught by Jesus. Nor his apostles. Where does one find it in the Bible? It's not there.
Where do we find this ritual in the Bible?

Spoiler

No where.
Where do we find infant baptism? Nowhere in the scriptures.
They are many more but I don't want to write a book here. It's long enough, as it is.

The Catholic Church deviated fom what Jesus taught.
Jesus taught his followers to be no part of the world. - John 15:19 ; John 17:14-16
The Catholic Church did the complete opposite.
Gradually [the Catholic Church] became entirely secular.
Christianity and nationalism
International Journal for the Study of the Christian Church

Soldiers on both sides of the First World War believed that God was on their side.
Both Protestant and Catholic clergy were highly politicised in [the nineteenth century].

We have not even touched on the "Holy" Crusades, and inquisitions - where torture and murder was the order of the day. Truly Dark Ages.
How can they even claim to be following Jesus' teachings?
As we can see, nothing could be further than the truth.

Clearly, Jesus did away with the man of lawlessness after 1914, who sat in the temple of God for a very long time - over 1800 years.
The apostate Christianity lost God's favor, and has been gathered to be burned up.

The GB again became evident after 1914, and shared in exposing her fate.