• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

Colt

Well-Known Member
Jesus hadn’t died and rose from the dead yet. His ministry and teaching was all proof that He was indeed the Messiah, God the Son who the Prophets spoke about. God the Father had been revealing this from the beginning and the time was right for Jesus to show up.
“But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4-7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
You are still quoting the after-cross speculation by Paul about the cross.

Dyeing and rising from the dead wasn't the original Gospel, it was proof of his divinity and authority to teach what he had been teaching. Obviously you can't acknowledge that.

The Father was already forgiving in the original gospel. Killing Jesus was the will of the devil, turning the other cheek was the will of the Father. Its how Father and Son decided to part ways with Judaism and bridge the rejection into the West.
 
You are still quoting the after-cross speculation by Paul about the cross.

Dyeing and rising from the dead wasn't the original Gospel, it was proof of his divinity and authority to teach what he had been teaching. Obviously you can't acknowledge that.

The Father was already forgiving in the original gospel. Killing Jesus was the will of the devil, turning the other cheek was the will of the Father. Its how Father and Son decided to part ways with Judaism and bridge the rejection into the West.
Nope that’s anti-Semitic sentiment and completely false.
 
You are still quoting the after-cross speculation by Paul about the cross.

Dyeing and rising from the dead wasn't the original Gospel, it was proof of his divinity and authority to teach what he had been teaching. Obviously you can't acknowledge that.

The Father was already forgiving in the original gospel. Killing Jesus was the will of the devil, turning the other cheek was the will of the Father. Its how Father and Son decided to part ways with Judaism and bridge the rejection into the West.
Let Isaiah preach the gospel:
“Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1-12‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Let Isaiah preach the gospel:
“Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:1-12‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now
That's not the Gospel either, its forcing Jesus into OT text in Justification for belief that you were supposed to kill him as a human sacrifice as opposed to his original gospel.

Isaiah 53 is about Israel as Gods "suffering servant".

"The key to deciphering any biblical text is to view it in context. Isaiah 53 is the fourth of the four “Servant Songs.” (The others are found in Isaiah chapters 42, 49 and 50.) Though the “servant” in Isaiah 53 is not openly identified – these verses merely refer to “My servant” (52:13, 53:11) – the “servant” in each of the previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the Jewish nation. Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”:

  • “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
  • “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
  • see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20
The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people."
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Nope that’s anti-Semitic sentiment and completely false.
Completely false? Anti-Semitic? Its true what they say, Christians read more of Paul and less of Jesus.


Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!


And yet people claim that killing Jesus as a sin sacrifice was the message? Jesus isn't on the same page the the Atonement doctrine.



.


 
That's not the Gospel either, its forcing Jesus into OT text in Justification for belief that you were supposed to kill him as a human sacrifice as opposed to his original gospel.

Isaiah 53 is about Israel as Gods "suffering servant".

"The key to deciphering any biblical text is to view it in context. Isaiah 53 is the fourth of the four “Servant Songs.” (The others are found in Isaiah chapters 42, 49 and 50.) Though the “servant” in Isaiah 53 is not openly identified – these verses merely refer to “My servant” (52:13, 53:11) – the “servant” in each of the previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the Jewish nation. Beginning with chapter 41, the equating of God’s Servant with the nation of Israel is made nine times by the prophet Isaiah, and no one other than Israel is identified as the “servant”:

  • “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
  • “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
  • see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20
The Bible is filled with other references to the Jewish people as God’s “servant”; see Jeremiah 30:10, 46:27-28; Psalms 136:22. There is no reason that the “servant” in Isaiah 53 would suddenly switch and refer to someone other than the Jewish people."
“Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth.” The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:26-36, 38-40‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 
Completely false? Anti-Semitic? Its true what they say, Christians read more of Paul and less of Jesus.


Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!


And yet people claim that killing Jesus as a sin sacrifice was the message? Jesus isn't on the same page the the Atonement doctrine.



.
Not sure how you miss the message of the Bible, I see Jesus all through the Old Testament. You’re mistaken:
“He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.” He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:17-27, 44-49‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
“Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of the Kandake (which means “queen of the Ethiopians”). This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the Book of Isaiah the prophet. The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.” Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. This is the passage of Scripture the eunuch was reading: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth.” The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”

And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:26-36, 38-40‬ ‭NIV‬‬
More Jesus, less after the fact.

The primitive concept of blood sacrifice for sins was a universal Pagan practice. It fly's in the face of Jesus going first to the Israelites with the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven if in fact he was just a volunteer animal sacrifice substitute. Pauls new gospel of "Christ and him crucifed" for the sins of the world replaced the original Gospel of salvation via faith in the Father.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Not sure how you miss the message of the Bible, I see Jesus all through the Old Testament. You’re mistaken:
“He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.” He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:17-27, 44-49‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Luke 24:17-27,44-49 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does no He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their mind | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now
In retrospect with a biased mind you "see what you want to see".

Jesus revealed the Father and it was very different then the God of the OT created largely in the minds of the men who wrote it.

With Jesus we were to start out fresh like little children in trusting the Gospel of the Kingdom. We were NOT supposed to put the new wine into the old wineskins

The authority of the Son of God is his own, he doesn't rely on anything from Judaism to justify his office.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?
That is only David's famous hyperbole (well, one of very many) in Psalm 51 -- the Psalm of profound repentance for his very great wrongs of murder and adultery.

Really listen, and one can hear it correctly instead:

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

....(continues)
Psalm 51 NIV

In context we can hear it rightly -- clearly hyperbole.

Christ helps us know this reality that babes, little children also, are innocent and under Grace, already:

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

They are from the start, already, in the Kingdom of God until they finally sin with real accountability -- understanding they are doing wrong and doing it intentionally -- only much later in time....

Original sin seems yet another of the many mistaken ideas people come up with from isolating verses out of context.
 
In retrospect with a biased mind you "see what you want to see".

Jesus revealed the Father and it was very different then the God of the OT created largely in the minds of the men who wrote it.

With Jesus we were to start out fresh like little children in trusting the Gospel of the Kingdom. We were NOT supposed to put the new wine into the old wineskins

The authority of the Son of God is his own, he doesn't rely on anything from Judaism to justify his office.
Brother, that’s you seeing what you want to see, I showed you from the prophets, Jesus Christ, Apostles all share the same message yet your message is different from them all on how a persons sins are forgiven. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
 
Brother, that’s you seeing what you want to see, I showed you from the prophets, Jesus Christ, Apostles all share the same message yet your message is different from them all on how a persons sins are forgiven. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Have you received the promise of the Holy Spirit since you believed, if so when and how?
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?
(see first post 170 just above)

So, the real meaning of that passage Romans 5:12-21 Augustine used to think of the idea of 'original sin' could be best be understood instead to mean an original sin was done that broke the condition of Grace/faith: putting us away from easy contact with God for all our society as a whole.

And that we then tend to replicate that same wrongful distrust of God eventually -- we finally one day as we get older do the same thing in some way: trust ourselves above God, distrusting Him in some meaningful degree then -- in at some point well past early childhood, perhaps in the teen years for most.

So, no, we weren't born that way, except in the trivially true way that all beings strike out for independence and tend to at times make important mistakes they can feel aren't quite right. That most any intelligent being with freedom and agency would eventually be likely to do the same -- given enough time, billions of seconds of time to get to that error, an inevitable part of aging sometime past adolescence.
 
Last edited:

Colt

Well-Known Member
Brother, that’s you seeing what you want to see, I showed you from the prophets, Jesus Christ, Apostles all share the same message yet your message is different from them all on how a persons sins are forgiven. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Brother, that’s you seeing what you want to see, I showed you from the prophets, Jesus Christ, Apostles all share the same message yet your message is different from them all on how a persons sins are forgiven. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
No, you did the dance all around the obvious central point that Jesus spent 3+ preaching his gospel before he was apprehended and killed. But you claim killing Jesus was the Gospel!

Jesus had already forgiven without the shedding of blood. So yes, its you who would have rejected Jesus on the same grounds that you argue now.

But Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, Teacher,” he said.41“Two men were debtors to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,e and the other fifty. 42When they were unable to repay him, he forgave both of them. Which one, then, will love him more?”43“I suppose the one who was forgiven more,” Simon replied.

“You have judged correctly,”
Jesus said.44And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”49


But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

That's one reason the priest class hated Jesus so much, his simple Gospel of salvation by faith in the Father bypassed their lucrative sacrificial system!
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Have you received the promise of the Holy Spirit since you believed, if so when and how?
Justified and saved by faith and the responsibility that comes with being a faith born son of God. No legalistic contracts and contorted theology needed. The common people heard Jesus gladly, it was the theology lawyers that got so angry with him.
 
No, you did the dance all around the obvious central point that Jesus spent 3+ preaching his gospel before he was apprehended and killed. But you claim killing Jesus was the Gospel!

Jesus had already forgiven without the shedding of blood. So yes, its you who would have rejected Jesus on the same grounds that you argue now.

But Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, Teacher,” he said.41“Two men were debtors to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,e and the other fifty. 42When they were unable to repay him, he forgave both of them. Which one, then, will love him more?”43“I suppose the one who was forgiven more,” Simon replied.

“You have judged correctly,”
Jesus said.44And turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give Me water for My feet, but she wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not greet Me with a kiss, but she has not stopped kissing My feet since I arrived. 46You did not anoint My head with oil, but she has anointed My feet with perfume. 47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”48Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”49


But those at the table began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

That's one reason the priest class hated Jesus so much, his simple Gospel of salvation by faith in the Father bypassed their lucrative sacrificial system!
What is faith? Describe it
 
To me faith is a gift, it's an inexplicable trust in the unseen God.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, you seem to reject the whole New Testament, the Old Testament that foretells of Jesus being the Lamb of God who came to take away the sins of the world. John the Baptist wrong as well?
 
Top