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It is man's fault, not God's fault

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
I have yet to see any evidence or even a convincing reference to this being true. Note: proving there was garbage near Jerusalem doesn't suffice.

Intellectual honesty will prevent anyone who accepts the Bible from denying the many verses that talk about hell in no uncertain terms, such as this:

Matthew 13, 49 "is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous" 50 "and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 51 '“Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked. “Yes,” they replied.'
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Since the parent is responsible for minor children (Flood of Noah's day; destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE)
then a parent separated as a figurative ' goat 'at the time of Matthew 25:31-33 would be responsible for a minor.

Oh, OK. So then it isn't only God's enemies that get killed at armegeddon? Innocent children get killed as well?

The flood (dunno about the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem) shows that God has no problem killing those who aren't his enemies since young children don't have such a view of him.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
If God chose to make mankind morally imperfect, you don’t blame mankind for behaving morally imperfect, you blame the God who chose to make him that way.
The point of the OP is that you have heard the warnings.
It is not praying to the dead or worshipping the dead. a part of sufism is to go to the grave of the saints and speak with them to gain deeper wisdom.
whatever you choose call it, the Qur'an says the dead do not hear. Why do the teachings you follow contradict the Qur'an? What kind of wisdom do you think the dead can give you?
I dont know how much you know about Sufism but it is a esoteric path
By esoteric do you refer to your abandoning the rulings of Islam or to that Islam was no supposedly something revealed to all men, but rather just to small special groups of people? Or something else?
Sufism is another name for Esoteric Knowledge, dealing in enlightenment, transformation & strengthening of your souls & auxiliary spirits. It’s folly for humans to exclude spirituality from religion.
Who has excluded spirituality from religion? Sufism means wearing clothes made of wool.
Indeed the nafs that overwhelmingly commands a person to do sin.[12:53]

25:43] Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? ... Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes
Cutting verses now?

Surat Yusuf[12], ayah 53 says "And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

Surat l-Fur'qan[25], ayah 43 says "Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?"
And here it doesn't use the word nafs.

The rest you quote as though it was part of the previously mentioned ayah, is from Surat al-Jathiyah, ayah 23 and it says: "Hast thou ever considered [the kind of man] who makes his own desires his deity, and whom God has [thereupon] let go astray, knowing [that his mind is closed to all guidance], and whose hearing and heart He has sealed, and upon whose sight He has placed a veil? Who, then, could guide him after God [has abandoned him]? Will you not, then, bethink yourselves"

So again, where does Islam say you have to do away with your ego?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
The point of the OP is that you have heard the warnings.
whatever you choose call it, the Qur'an says the dead do not hear. Why do the teachings you follow contradict the Qur'an? What kind of wisdom do you think the dead can give you?

By esoteric do you refer to your abandoning the rulings of Islam or to that Islam was no supposedly something revealed to all men, but rather just to small special groups of people? Or something else?

Who has excluded spirituality from religion? Sufism means wearing clothes made of wool.

Cutting verses now?

Surat Yusuf[12], ayah 53 says "And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

Surat l-Fur'qan[25], ayah 43 says "Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?"
And here it doesn't use the word nafs.

The rest you quote as though it was part of the previously mentioned ayah, is from Surat al-Jathiyah, ayah 23 and it says: "Hast thou ever considered [the kind of man] who makes his own desires his deity, and whom God has [thereupon] let go astray, knowing [that his mind is closed to all guidance], and whose hearing and heart He has sealed, and upon whose sight He has placed a veil? Who, then, could guide him after God [has abandoned him]? Will you not, then, bethink yourselves"

So again, where does Islam say you have to do away with your ego?
To understand sufism you must read up on it. I am not a teacher in sufism so what i can provide is my understanding of the Osmanli Naksibendi teaching. This teaching goes all the way back to the Holy prophet Muhammad. With more than 40 Grand Sheykhs.
The teaching is within the quran, hadith, sunnah. And a lot of teachings passer down by the 40 Grand Sheykhs.
That you do not accept this teaching or tarika is ok, i do not blame you.
If you do not wish to call it islam, that is up to you. Personally i have no doubt in the teaching or in the 40 Grand Sheykhs or my own teacher.

Your have not even Said a word about if you are a sunni or shia muslims, but you know, it does not matter to me because you are free to follow the teaching that you do. I have zero reason to speak bad about you, your belief or other people who believe different than i do.

People follow their belief, i follow my belief.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
To understand sufism you must read up on it. I am not a teacher in sufism so what i can provide is my understanding of the Osmanli Naksibendi teaching. This teaching goes all the way back to the Holy prophet Muhammad. With more than 40 Grand Sheykhs.
The teaching is within the quran, hadith, sunnah. And a lot of teachings passer down by the 40 Grand Sheykhs.
That you do not accept this teaching or tarika is ok, i do not blame you.
If you do not wish to call it islam, that is up to you. Personally i have no doubt in the teaching or in the 40 Grand Sheykhs or my own teacher.

Your have not even Said a word about if you are a sunni or shia muslims, but you know, it does not matter to me because you are free to follow the teaching that you do. I have zero reason to speak bad about you, your belief or other people who believe different than i do.

People follow their belief, i follow my belief.
So no answer once again. You say you follow the Sunnah and the Qur'an. Don't you understand the contradiction on saying you follow the Sunnah and not followong it and on saying you follow the Qur'an and not following it?

You're also basically saying the Prophet (ﷺ) didn't tell the whole truth to people, rather he passed down secret information to specific people. Such claims require evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. You have provided zero.

If you actually cared about the truth, you would want an answer to such questions and contradictions, but apparently you don't care. You would rather hide behind the statement that you don't know much. But when I place the evidence right in front of you, you ignore it. If I show you verses from the Qur'an or hadiths, and the hadiths are authentic, you have no choice but to accept them. If you do not, you and others have to conclude you neither accept nor follow the sunnah.

You cannot be on two opposing sides at the same time.

To quote the source you yourself used:
There is no secret knowledge in Islam that is only for the awliyaa’ (“saints”) - Islam Question & Answer
Praise be to Allah.

Al-Shanqeeti said:

Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Our Shaykh, Abu’l-‘Abbaas, said: some heretics who followed batiniyyah (esoteric teachings) wanted to follow a path that did not enjoin these shar’i rulings. They said: these general shar’i rulings are obligatory upon the Prophets and the masses only. As for the awliyaa’ and the elite, they do not need those texts. Rather what is required of them is what they receive in their hearts through intuition and the thoughts that dominate their minds. They said: this is because their hearts are free of anything that may cause distraction and of thoughts of anything other than Allaah. In this manner divine knowledge becomes manifest to them, and they discover the secrets of creation and learn the rulings concerning minor issues, thus they are no longer subjected to the holistic shar’i rulings. This is what happened in the case of al-Khidr who, by means of the knowledge that was made manifest to him was rendered independent of the knowledge that Moosa had. One of the things that they narrated was the words: “Consult your heart, no matter how many people give you fatwas and advice.”

Our shaykh (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: These are the words of heresy and kufr; the one who says them should be executed without being asked to repent, because he has denied that which is known from the sharee’ah. For Allaah has set up the system by His wisdom in such a way that His rulings can only be known through His Messengers who are ambassadors between Him and His creation. They are the only ones who convey His Message and His words from Him, explaining His laws and rulings, and He has chosen them for that purpose.

What that means is that whoever says that he has taken the ruling of Allaah from his heart or from what he received in his heart through intuition, and that he acts upon that and thus has no need of the Qur’aan or Sunnah, has claimed for himself the unique qualities of Prophethood, because this is like what the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Holy Spirit [i.e., Jibreel] told me in my heart…” (From Tafseer al-Qurtubi).
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
So no answer once again. You say you follow the Sunnah and the Qur'an. Don't you understand the contradiction on saying you follow the Sunnah and not followong it and on saying you follow the Qur'an and not following it?

You're also basically saying the Prophet (ﷺ) didn't tell the whole truth to people, rather he passed down secret information to specific people. Such claims require evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. You have provided zero.

If you actually cared about the truth, you would want an answer to such questions and contradictions, but apparently you don't care. You would rather hide behind the statement that you don't know much. But when I place the evidence right in front of you, you ignore it. If I show you verses from the Qur'an or hadiths, and the hadiths are authentic, you have no choice but to accept them. If you do not, you and others have to conclude you neither accept nor follow the sunnah.

You cannot be on two opposing sides at the same time.

To quote the source you yourself used:
Without accusing you of anything, you sound like an wahhabi who hate sufism :)

If i am wrong thats on me. But you only attack and have nothing good to say.
This is the reason I do not answer. Because no matter what my answer will be, you will continue your critique. And nothing good will come from it.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Without accusing you of anything, you sound like an wahhabi who hate sufism :)

If i am wrong thats on me. But you only attack and have nothing good to say.
This is the reason I do not answer. Because no matter what my answer will be, you will continue your critique. And nothing good will come from it.
You don't know what wahabbism means.
I dislike kufr. Your brand of sufism enjoins it.

We are not to speak about Islam if we don't know what we are talking about.
Hadith - The Book of the Sunnah - Sunan Ibn Majah - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that: The Messenger of Allah said: "Whoever calls people to true guidance, will have a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without that detracting from their reward in the slightest. And whoever calls people to misguidance, will have a (burden of) sin equal to that of those who follow him, without that detracting from their sins in the slightest.'"
Surat al-A'raf, ayah 33 "Say: "Verily, my Sustainer has forbidden only, shameful deeds, be they open or secret, and [every kind of] sinning, and unjustified envy, and the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him - since He has never bestowed any warrant therefor from on high - and the attributing unto God of aught of which you have no knowledge."

Surat l-Isra, ayah 36 "And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that."

I have nothing good to say? Is talking about the Quran something bad to say? Is referring to the sunnah something bad to say? Is advising another person something bad to say? What is it that I say that you think is bad, to be specific?

You have yet to show me a place where I have been disrespectful as you implied in the beginning that I had been. Feel free to show where I have been impolite or where I have failed to provide a reference to what I say or where I have said something untrue.

I thought you don't answer because you don't know. Now it is because I "have nothing good to say". Are you now able to answer me?

If that were true you wouldn't be here. You don't mind the atheists continuing their critic. You invite it in fact. Is there anyone else here whom you refuse to answer to because they continue to disagree with you?

You continue to disagree with me as well.

Nothing good will come from critique? Then why do you want it from atheists?

Another round of deflection on your part.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
So no answer once again. You say you follow the Sunnah and the Qur'an. Don't you understand the contradiction on saying you follow the Sunnah and not followong it and on saying you follow the Qur'an and not following it?

You're also basically saying the Prophet (ﷺ) didn't tell the whole truth to people, rather he passed down secret information to specific people. Such claims require evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. You have provided zero.

If you actually cared about the truth, you would want an answer to such questions and contradictions, but apparently you don't care. You would rather hide behind the statement that you don't know much. But when I place the evidence right in front of you, you ignore it. If I show you verses from the Qur'an or hadiths, and the hadiths are authentic, you have no choice but to accept them. If you do not, you and others have to conclude you neither accept nor follow the sunnah.

You cannot be on two opposing sides at the same time.

To quote the source you yourself used:
An Explanation of Islam and Sufism (seen from sufism) take a look at this to understand different in sunni/shia vs sufism
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
To me both Job and Jesus under very-adverse conditions proved capable of succeeding.
Adam was un-faithful in least.
Job and Jesus were faithful under much.

Sure, these are ideals. But David failed and so too did Moses.

The point is that this is a partnership. And really no one can succeed without God so He has His part of the bargain to live up to.

"God helps those who help themselves" may not be a quote from the Bible but it is backed by scripture (see God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia). God needs us to make an effort but we need God to do the same.

At some point the relationship fails and God's inaction could reasonably be seen as equally at fault. Consider Hitler for instance.

But in the end God made the world and pronounced it good. And then God made us. Not man made man, but God made man. What will be the consequences of God's action?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sure, these are ideals. But David failed and so too did Moses.
But in the end God made the world and pronounced it good. And then God made us. Not man made man, but God made man. What will be the consequences of God's action?

I think there is a BIG difference between failed (or failure) and made a mistake.
In God's Word (Holy Bible) I don't see Moses classed as failed - Hebrews 11:24-29
Nor do I see repentant David as failed according to Hebrews 11:32-34
I find in Scripture that God made Man on creative Day 6 which Day 6 ends as "Very Good" - Genesis 1:27,31.

What we now see are the bad consequences of Adam's action - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
The opposite of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6 and John 13:34-35.
What we will see is God's Good Judgement action as found at Revelation 22:2.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Oh, OK. So then it isn't only God's enemies that get killed at armegeddon? Innocent children get killed as well?
The flood (dunno about the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem) shows that God has no problem killing those who aren't his enemies since young children don't have such a view of him.

God knows the cut-off point. We can't read hearts.
The children of Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah would have grown up violent like the parents.
God did Not create Earth to be inhabited by violent people.
Earth was created for humble meek upright people.
This is why Jesus will separate the figurative humble 'sheep' from the haughty 'goats' - Matthew 25:31-33,37.

If God had Not taken the action that He did there would have been No one righteous left on Earth.
For the sake of the righteous God will have Jesus take the action of Isaiah11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
Everyone can ' repent ' if they don't want to ' perish ' - 2 Peter 3:9

P.S. Back in the '80 I got an obscene phone call.
A filthy-mouthed woman in the background was telling a young boy what to say.
I told the nervous young boy to tell his mother she needs a doctor.
End of phone call.

Also, a long time back, one day I called the police about a few very-young boys throwing stones off a hill down towards highway traffic. The police man told me boys will be boys.
I was speechless at his reply, and afterwards I thought if the Mayor's mother's car was hit would he be saying , 'boys will be boys' ! I watched this happen from work for almost a half hour.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I have yet to see any evidence or even a convincing reference to this being true. Note: proving there was garbage near Jerusalem doesn't suffice.
Intellectual honesty will prevent anyone who accepts the Bible from denying the many verses that talk about hell in no uncertain terms, such as this:
Matthew 13:49 "is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous" 50 "and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 51 '“Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked. “Yes,” they replied.'

Yes, even dead Jesus was in biblical hell according to KJV Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus taught the dead 'sleep', so dead Jesus was sleeping Not burning in biblical hell.- John 11:11-14
That symbolic ' blazing furnace ' is the ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.
Matthew 13:47-50 is in connection to Jesus' illustration about the fishing dragnet at Matthew 13:47-48.
Un-suitable 'fish', so to speak, are separated, just like separation between 'sheep' and 'goats' at Matthew 25:31-33.
Scripture teaches the wicked are ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
The choice at 2 Peter 3:9 is Not ' blazing fire ' but to ' repent ' or ' perish ' ( perish meaning: being destroyed )
So, Matthew 13:3 informs us what Jesus is saying is in parable or illustrative form from verses 1 to 52.
See also Mark 4:2-34 and Luke 8:4-18
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
God knows the cut-off point. We can't read hearts.
The children of Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah would have grown up violent like the parents.
God did Not create Earth to be inhabited by violent people.
Earth was created for humble meek upright people.
This is why Jesus will separate the figurative humble 'sheep' from the haughty 'goats' - Matthew 25:31-33,37.

If God had Not taken the action that He did there would have been No one righteous left on Earth.
For the sake of the righteous God will have Jesus take the action of Isaiah11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
Everyone can ' repent ' if they don't want to ' perish ' - 2 Peter 3:9

P.S. Back in the '80 I got an obscene phone call.
A filthy-mouthed woman in the background was telling a young boy what to say.
I told the nervous young boy to tell his mother she needs a doctor.
End of phone call.

Also, a long time back, one day I called the police about a few very-young boys throwing stones off a hill down towards highway traffic. The police man told me boys will be boys.
I was speechless at his reply, and afterwards I thought if the Mayor's mother's car was hit would he be saying , 'boys will be boys' ! I watched this happen from work for almost a half hour.

Are you implying that children always grow up to be like their parents? What about JW's who come from abusive backgrounds but turn out to be good people?

Here are my anecdotal examples:

I know a few children with violent, abusive parents. They rejected those ways and turned out to not be violent. This is in a violent community mind you.

I know children who reject the ways of their communities and their parents from various religious backgrounds.

Why do you use examples that favour your position and don't also including examples that do not favour your position?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
You don't know what wahabbism means.
I dislike kufr. Your brand of sufism enjoins it.

We are not to speak about Islam if we don't know what we are talking about.

Surat al-A'raf, ayah 33 "Say: "Verily, my Sustainer has forbidden only, shameful deeds, be they open or secret, and [every kind of] sinning, and unjustified envy, and the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him - since He has never bestowed any warrant therefor from on high - and the attributing unto God of aught of which you have no knowledge."

Surat l-Isra, ayah 36 "And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that."

I have nothing good to say? Is talking about the Quran something bad to say? Is referring to the sunnah something bad to say? Is advising another person something bad to say? What is it that I say that you think is bad, to be specific?

You have yet to show me a place where I have been disrespectful as you implied in the beginning that I had been. Feel free to show where I have been impolite or where I have failed to provide a reference to what I say or where I have said something untrue.

I thought you don't answer because you don't know. Now it is because I "have nothing good to say". Are you now able to answer me?

If that were true you wouldn't be here. You don't mind the atheists continuing their critic. You invite it in fact. Is there anyone else here whom you refuse to answer to because they continue to disagree with you?

You continue to disagree with me as well.

Nothing good will come from critique? Then why do you want it from atheists?

Another round of deflection on your part.

Are you Wahabbi?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Are you implying that children always grow up to be like their parents? What about JW's who come from abusive backgrounds but turn out to be good people................?

No, Not ' always ' that is why all are asked to ' repent ' if one does Not want to ' perish ' - 2 Peter 3:9
However, at Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah they were past the point of repenting, past redemption.
In other words, God knew the ' cut off ' time or point.
Unlike people, God can read hearts and know when a situation is beyond hope.
When the ' time of separation ' on Earth comes (Matthew 25:31-33,37) it is Not in what people judge but what judgement God has placed in the hands of Christ Jesus as this coming 'cut off ' point or time.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
No, Not ' always ' that is why all are asked to ' repent ' if one does Not want to ' perish ' - 2 Peter 3:9
However, at Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah they were past the point of repenting, past redemption.
In other words, God knew the ' cut off ' time or point.
Unlike people, God can read hearts and know when a situation is beyond hope.
When the ' time of separation ' on Earth comes (Matthew 25:31-33,37) it is Not in what people judge but what judgement God has placed in the hands of Christ Jesus as this coming 'cut off ' point or time.

So then would you say that civilization that will be around at the end times will eventually reach a point of depravity so bad that it is even inevitable that the children will turn out just as depraved?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So then would you say that civilization that will be around at the end times will eventually reach a point of depravity so bad that it is even inevitable that the children will turn out just as depraved?

That was the situation at the time of Genesis 6:11.
Yes, God, who can read hearts, saw it was inevitable that the children would turn out just as depraved, violent.
And that 'day of judgement' was to clear things up and give the opportunity to make better.
Thus, Armageddon survivors (this un-numbered great crowd of Rev. 7:9,14) will have a righteous start.
Resurrected people will have a righteous start.
By the end of Jesus' Millennial reign over Earth those who prove or remain righteous will gain everlasting life.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?



Blame is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. What does Blame really get you? Better energy is spent on solving problems and concentrating on results.

Is this world the way it is because of God?? You bet it is!! This world is a MASTERPIECE!!! Yes, Yes, including all the kiddies.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 
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