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It is man's fault, not God's fault

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?
I expect there to be solid evidence that is far more conclusive than some book talking about flying horses and semen coming from between the ribs.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I expect there to be solid evidence that is far more conclusive than some book talking about flying horses and semen coming from between the ribs.

Forget the book. If someone tells you what you are about to do has dire consequences, whether it be mans law or a gods law, does it not make you think twice?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Forget the book. If someone tells you what you are about to do has dire consequences, whether it be mans law or a gods law, does it not make you think twice?
If they have no evidence to support their claim, I dismiss it. And it needs to be credible. I know the sun is hot. I know it poses a risk to me. But if someone says not to go outside because the sun will burn me up, they may offer some supporting evidence for the claim but it's rubbish so I will dismiss it.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
If they have no evidence to support their claim, I dismiss it. And it needs to be credible. I know the sun is hot. I know it poses a risk to me. But if someone says not to go outside because the sun will burn me up, they may offer some supporting evidence for the claim but it's rubbish so I will dismiss it.
Sunburns are real. The point is if you were fixing to do something stupid or crazy and some one said your will pay for it, would you not think about it?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Sunburns are real. The point is if you were fixing to do something stupid or crazy and some one said your will pay for it, would you not think about it?
I know sunburns are real. I'm fair skinned so it's something I must be cautious with. But it's not burning me up, even if I forget to use sunscreen. So such a warning I would ignore.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I know sunburns are real. I'm fair skinned so it's something I must be cautious with. But it's not burning me up, even if I forget to use sunscreen. So such a warning I would ignore.

Nice dodge. But the fact is being you are fair skinned you would pay for a bad sunburn even though you ignored the warning.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Nice dodge. But the fact is being you are fair skinned you would pay for a bad sunburn even though you ignored the warning.
No. I'm not being burned up. That's the point. The warning was to stay inside because if I go outside I'll burn up. That's not true. I put on some sun screen, regularly reapply it, and I'm find. No need to pay this warning of being burnt up any heed or mind.
I more realistic example of when I was warned to stay out of the black part of town where I used to live. I never did heed those words. I interacted with people there, ate at some restaurants, and often stopped in at a particular gas station for a certain drink. I was never robbed, mugged, abducted, beat up, jumped, shot, stabbed, or raped despite the warnings.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
No. I'm not being burned up. That's the point. The warning was to stay inside because if I go outside I'll burn up. That's not true. I put on some sun screen, regularly reapply it, and I'm find. No need to pay this warning of being burnt up any heed or mind.
I more realistic example of when I was warned to stay out of the black part of town where I used to live. I never did heed those words. I interacted with people there, ate at some restaurants, and often stopped in at a particular gas station for a certain drink. I was never robbed, mugged, abducted, beat up, jumped, shot, stabbed, or raped despite the warnings.

But you just said and I quote "But it's not burning me up, even if I forget to use sunscreen"

Now you are saying "I put on some sun screen, regularly reapply it, and I'm fine".

Evidently without it you would badly burn. Hence take warning.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
But you just said and I quote "But it's not burning me up, even if I forget to use sunscreen"

Now you are saying "I put on some sun screen, regularly reapply it, and I'm fine".

Evidently without it you would badly burn. Hence take warning.
When I say burned up, I mean burned up as a log is burned up in a fire. Not a sunburn.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I can think of three commandments off the top of my head that God should follow:
1. Thou shall not send a famine into a poor country that kills 5 million innocent children of starvation.
2. Thou shall not send a pestilence into a poor country that kills 5 million innocent children of diarrhea.
3. Thou shall not send earthquakes, tidal waves, and typhoons into poor countries that kill 5 million innocent children.

Seems to me what is posted ^ above^ fits the words of Ecclesiastes 8:9
that it is MAN who has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury.

There was No famine in Eden
There was No pestilence in Eden
There were No earthquakes, Tsunami tidal waves, typhoons in Eden.

When Jesus said there would be ' GREAT earthquakes ' he was Not teaching God was the cause.
Jesus was just forewarning us that such things would be happening as per Luke 21:11.
Happening before there would be divine involvement into mankind's affairs.
God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So if a person at the time of Armageddon hasn't heard about your message, they would be exempt from destruction? Same with people who are not against JW's but do not believe?
Since Jesus said the good news of God's kingdom or government would be proclaimed on an international scale as a 'witness' to the nations (Matthew 24:14) then remember new people are born each day, so Jesus (who can read hearts) will be the Judge. Hearing about God's kingdom creates a division of the heart for good or bad.
Once a person hears about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) then it is his choice to accept or reject and Jesus is the judge.
We need to back up to 'before' Armageddon, because before Armageddon is the ' great tribulation ' as per Revelation 7:14,9. The ' great tribulation ' will be the ' cut off time '. Separated 'sheep' and 'goats' - Matthew 25:31-33
Then, only what can be referred to as a 'hailstone message' will be left and that will be for the figurative ' goats '.
Once the great tribulation breaks out there can be No ' climbing on the band wagon ', so to speak, at the last minute.
There is a sobering thought found at Luke 11:23; Matthew 12:30 because the person Not with Jesus is considered against Jesus.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Seems to me what is posted ^ above^ fits the words of Ecclesiastes 8:9
that it is MAN who has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury.

There was No famine in Eden
There was No pestilence in Eden
There were No earthquakes, Tsunami tidal waves, typhoons in Eden.

When Jesus said there would be ' GREAT earthquakes ' he was Not teaching God was the cause.
Jesus was just forewarning us that such things would be happening as per Luke 21:11.
Happening before there would be divine involvement into mankind's affairs.
God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.
Yeah, this is all just a person's own personal biased opinions about what was and what Jesus intends to do. There's nothing factual here.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Since Jesus said the good news of God's kingdom or government would be proclaimed on an international scale as a 'witness' to the nations (Matthew 24:14) then remember new people are born each day, so Jesus (who can read hearts) will be the Judge. Hearing about God's kingdom creates a division of the heart for good or bad.
Once a person hears about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) then it is his choice to accept or reject and Jesus is the judge.
We need to back up to 'before' Armageddon, because before Armageddon is the ' great tribulation ' as per Revelation 7:14,9. The ' great tribulation ' will be the ' cut off time '. Separated 'sheep' and 'goats' - Matthew 25:31-33
Then, only what can be referred to as a 'hailstone message' will be left and that will be for the figurative ' goats '.
Once the great tribulation breaks out there can be No ' climbing on the band wagon ', so to speak, at the last minute.
There is a sobering thought found at Luke 11:23; Matthew 12:30 because the person Not with Jesus is considered against Jesus.

So then as you mentioned "new people being born each day", what would happen to newborns who are around during Armageddon and who aren't born into JW households? Would they survive Armageddon?
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Respectfully, I don't think this is an accurate description. Do people have a choice whether or not they are created?

I think it's fair to blame the maker if the creation did not have full disclosure of the hazards and the opportunity to decline prior to being created.
Surat l-Ahzab, ayah 72 "Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;"
Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Al-Amanah means obedience. This was offered to them before it was offered to Adam, and they could not bear it. Then Allah said to Adam: `I have offered the Amanah to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they could not bear it. Will you take it on' He said, `O Lord, what does it involve' He said, `If you do good, you will be rewarded, and if you do evil, you will be punished.' So Adam took the Amanah and bore it, and this is what is referred to in the Ayah:
Quran Tafsir | Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Surah 33. Al-Ahzab . Ayah 72
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Surat l-Ahzab, ayah 72 "Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;"
Thank you. Adam was given the choice, and accepted it. How does Adam consent on my behalf? It's not much different than God creating me, giving me freewill, punishing me for disobediance without consent. Complaining about this non-consential requirement for obediance is justified, imo.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Welcome Shakeel!

Ah, you're talking about the problem of evil.

Problem of evil

My problem with this is that god could have designed the rules of existence to become anything he wanted... And untold, incalculable suffering is what we are left with. I see it every day in the hospital I work at.

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So!... What's the way around Epicurean's Paradox?
Thank you. There is a problem with the picture. God doesn't want to prevent all evil in this world. If He wanted to, He would. That doesn't mean God can't be loving and good at the same time. Rather, a lot of Christians have a problem in their argument that God is so good, there can be no hell — which would mean God was unjust. For someone to be good, they have to be just, even with us humans.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Thankfully, people like faithful Job and Jesus under adverse conditions remained faithful to God.
So, it is Not the failure of the whole human race, but the failure of people turning their backs on God.
Turning their backs on the Golden Rule and Jesus' new commandment to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has - John 13:34-35.

And God couldnt make a people capable of succeeding?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So then as you mentioned "new people being born each day", what would happen to newborns who are around during Armageddon and who aren't born into JW households? Would they survive Armageddon?
Since the parent is responsible for minor children (Flood of Noah's day; destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE)
then a parent separated as a figurative ' goat 'at the time of Matthew 25:31-33 would be responsible for a minor.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Thank you. There is a problem with the picture. God doesn't want to prevent all evil in this world. If He wanted to, He would. That doesn't mean God can't be loving and good at the same time. Rather, a lot of Christians have a problem in their argument that God is so good, there can be no hell — which would mean God was unjust. For someone to be good, they have to be just, even with us humans.
Rather, lots of 'so-called Christians' ( Fake weed/tares Christians ) teach a fiery hell.
Whereas the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus and the OT both teach 'sleep' in death - Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14
When King James translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put the flames in death/grave.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were: destroyed.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for: destruction.
Destruction as the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; 2 Peter 3:9.
Biblical hell (grave) comes to a final end ( Rev. 20:13-14 )
After everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up' ( that means resurrected out of biblical hell ) then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell/grave.
 
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