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Did Jesus Christ actually die?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That’s not cogent to my post. You said that we are “at best” sinners. Then you said that God didn’t create sinners. That means that, at best, we are not sinners.

I meant that we can't be perfect. No matter how hard we try, we are still going to sin.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I am not talking about what is portrayed in Buddhist mythology. I am talking about the hell of Christian mythology.

Both are not what the Bible describes. OBJECTION TO CHRISTIANITY: A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell

Moreland: “I just want to be biblically accurate. We know that the reference to flames is figurative because if you try to take it literally, it makes no sense. For example, hell is described as a place of utter darkness and yet there are flames, too. How can that be? Flames would light things up. In addition, we’re told Christ is going to return surrounded by flames and that He’s going to have a big sword coming out of His mouth. But nobody thinks Christ won’t be able to say anything because He’ll be choking on a sword. The figure of the sword stands for the Word of God in judgment. The flames stand for Christ coming in judgment. In Hebrews 12:29, God is called a consuming fire. Yet nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Using the flame imagery is a way of saying He’s a God of judgment.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Hell is not what it's portrayed in Buddhist mythology. It's eternal separation from God
If we only have life inasmuch as we have God’s Spirit within us (as per Genesis), then when we’re separated from that Spirit, we die. Therefore, no eternal anything for us. We can only enjoy eternity in union with God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And they are merely making the error of ignoring clear Bible verses that tell you hell is torture and it is forever.

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:42-48

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”



Revelation 20:10, 14-15

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Yes, there are other verses that contradict this, but then we all know that the Bible contradicts itself countless times. It is one of the greatest flaws of the Bible.
 

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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I don't know if Hitler was saved. That's between him and God.
Why not? Can you not extrapolate from your own theological construct whether what Jesus “did on the cross” was efficacious for Hitler?? If Jesus’ act expiates the thief, even though the thief was an unbeliever, does it not also expiate the sins of a believer?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It pleases God when we strive for perfection even though we could never reach it.
That doesn’t address the issue. I don’t think you understand who we are, or what we’re supposed to be, if you think that “at our best” we remain separate from God.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Why not? Can you not extrapolate from your own theological construct whether what Jesus “did on the cross” was efficacious for Hitler?? If Jesus’ act expiates the thief, even though the thief was an unbeliever, does it not also expiate the sins of a believer?

One of the thieves was an unbeliever.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
And they are merely making the error of ignoring clear Bible verses that tell you hell is torture and it is forever.

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:42-48

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”



Revelation 20:10, 14-15

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Yes, there are other verses that contradict this, but then we all know that the Bible contradicts itself countless times. It is one of the greatest flaws of the Bible.

Hell is not the way it's portrayed in the divine comedy. OBJECTION TO CHRISTIANITY: A Loving God Would Never Torture People in Hell
  • [*]Moreland: “In Jesus’ day thousands of animals were sacrificed every week in the Temple, and there was a sewage system for the blood and fat to flow outside, where it gathered in a pool. There were worms constantly ingesting that. When Jesus was teaching, He used this metaphor as a way of saying hell is worse than that disgusting place outside the city.”
    [*]Strobel: “There’s also the phrase ‘gnashing of teeth to describe those in hell. Doesn’t that refer to people reacting to the pain of torture?”
    [*]Moreland: “More precisely, this is meant to describe a state of anger or realization of great loss. It’s an expression of rage at realizing that one has made a huge mistake. If you’ve ever been around people who are self-absorbed, self-centered, and highly narcissistic, they get angry when they don’t get their way. I believe the gnashing of teeth is an expression of the type of personality of people who belong in hell.”
    [*]
    • Strobel: “No flames, no worms, no gnashing of teeth from torture—maybe hell isn’t as bad as we thought?”
    • Moreland: “It would be a mistake to think that way. Any figure of speech has a literal point. What is figurative is the burning flame; what is literal is that this is a place of utter heartbreak. It is a loss of everything, and it’s meant to stand for the fact that hell is the worst possible situation that could ever happen to a person.”
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We are all born into sin.
That’s not what Genesis says. That’s not what the Gospels say. We are created in the very image of God and given life through God’s in dwelling Spirit. The Gospels talk about Jesus reconciling us, that is, “putting us right again.” That simply doesn’t speak about our being born separate from God.
 
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