It is man's fault, not God's fault

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Humans were created in an excellent form, but their behaviour is not necessarily excellent.

What do you think causes that, and why don't you think it comes from God?

They have the capacity to do right. They are able to tell right from wrong. Choosing to do wrong is a fault in the doer, not in the creator.

If God is responsible for everything about the design of humans, and if everything that influences people is ultimately the work of God, then God is responsible for everything that humans do.

 

[oldbadger]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

But do you obey all God's commands?
Do you agree with paying to support the poor?
Do you agree with paying to support strangers?
Do you agree with paying to support needy children?
Do you agree with paying to support widows?

.......for starters.

 

[Shakeel]

What do you think causes that, and why don't you think it comes from God?

The free will which was given to man. The free will comes from God. How one uses it is one's own decision. Or do you feel unable to control your behaviour?

If God is responsible for everything about the design of humans, and if everything that influences people is ultimately the work of God, then God is responsible for everything that humans do.

So if someone steals from you does it suffice they say "it wasn't me. This is how I was created"?

Rather the Qur'an says in Surat al-Nisaa, ayah 79 "Whatever benefit comes to you (O man!), it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you (O Prophet!), to mankind as a messenger; and Allah is sufficient as a witness."

 

[Shakeel]

Do you agree with paying to support the poor?
Do you agree with paying to support strangers?
Do you agree with paying to support needy children?
Do you agree with paying to support widows?

.......for starters.

Obviously.

 

[oldbadger]

Obviously.

Excellent.
No probs
That's great, imo.....

 

[Audie]

When i think of it. Atheists and non muslims (believers in other religions) should actually be a muslims best friend, because in this way, the muslim will be tested and tested again of how well they understand the teaching of Allah, and to practice it correctly, when the muslim faces difficulties from those who do not believe in Islam.
So instead of pushing them away we should keep them close so they will comment on everything we do wrong according to the teaching Allah gave us

So close but then you step back.
The friend tries to help you recover,
not get worse

 

[Spirit of Light]

So close but then you step back.
The friend tries to help you recover,
not get worse

This may only account for my self, But taken out of my personal experience in life. I do tend to take a step back when i feel uncomforable or get challenged on my belief And Atheists has a very good sense of when i am on thin ice of understanding the scripture So they put a trap question infront of me. and naive as i can be, i jump right in

 

[filthyrottendirty]

I don't know anyone that is doing this.

A lot of people do this. See "the problem of evil"

 

[Shakeel]

Again. i know what the Quran says, and i do not disagree that that is what the teaching tell. But...in a time where a muslim working on his or her Nafs (ego) it is actually very important to be able to control one self when someone pushing our limits of what we like or dislike.

So you think you're too wise to obey the Qur'an? You say I "do not disagree". Who speaks like that about the word of God that they believe in? That is what we say when we don't want to express direct approval. You think you're better off deciding for yourself and yet you accept praying to the dead, and instead of following the Prophet (ﷺ) and the Quran, you follow people who have no understanding of Islam. That is the result of your thinking you know better.

Surah Fatir, ayah 22 "Neither are the living and the dead alike. Surely Allah makes whom He pleases hear, and you cannot make those hear who are in the graves"

Surat al-Naml, ayah 80 "Indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating."

 

[Kfox]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

If God chose to make mankind morally imperfect, you don’t blame mankind for behaving morally imperfect, you blame the God who chose to make him that way.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you think you're too wise to obey the Qur'an? You say I "do not disagree". Who speaks like that about the word of God that they believe in? That is what we say when we don't want to express direct approval. You think you're better off deciding for yourself and yet you accept praying to the dead, and instead of following the Prophet (ﷺ) and the Quran, you follow people who have no understanding of Islam. That is the result of your thinking you know better.

Surah Fatir, ayah 22 "Neither are the living and the dead alike. Surely Allah makes whom He pleases hear, and you cannot make those hear who are in the graves"

Surat al-Naml, ayah 80 "Indeed, you will not make the dead hear, nor will you make the deaf hear the call when they have turned their backs retreating."

I am not wise at all. And no i do not think i know better. I have my understanding but that is far from how the actually truth is told by Allah.
I am not telling others how to practice or believe.

 

[Shakeel]

I am not wise at all. And no i do not think i know better. I have my understanding but that is far from how the actually truth is told by Allah.
I am not telling others how to practice or believe.

How is it possible that you say your understanding is far from the truth as told by Allah? That sounds like you're saying your understanding is different from what Allah actually says, but I think that would be too problematic even for you.

You just made a comment, while identifying as a Muslim, about how atheists should be a Muslim's best friend. In that comment you are disregarding Allah's command and advising Muslims to do wrong.

We are held accountable for what we say and what we write.

 

[Spirit of Light]

How is it possible that you say your understanding is far from the truth as told by Allah? That sounds like you're saying your understanding is different from what Allah actually says, but I think that would be too problematic even for you.

You just made a comment, while identifying as a Muslim, about how atheists should be a Muslim's best friend. In that comment you are disregarding Allah's command and advising Muslims to do wrong.

We are held accountable for what we say and what we write.

How can my understanding be far from what Allah actually mean by his teaching? Because i have not been on the path of Sufism for very long, so i am still learning, and i do not blindly read the quran and memorize it and that is all. To go deep in to the meaning of the teaching and how to practice it every day is what i seek through the guidance of my teacher. So of course my understanding will not be the best right now.

The comment about the Atheists has to do with that since they ask a million questions about the teaching that i practice, if i do not know the answer, i must look for it in the teaching, then understand it. and then come back to the Atheist to tell what i found. That is a part of the spiritual awakening. and actually it brings me closer to Allah.

 

[Audie]

How can my understanding be far from what Allah actually mean by his teaching? Because i have not been on the path of Sufism for very long, so i am still learning, and i do not blindly read the quran and memorize it and that is all. To go deep in to the meaning of the teaching and how to practice it every day is what i seek through the guidance of my teacher. So of course my understanding will not be the best right now.

The comment about the Atheists has to do with that since they ask a million questions about the teaching that i practice, if i do not know the answer, i must look for it in the teaching, then understand it. and then come back to the Atheist to tell what i found. That is a part of the spiritual awakening. and actually it brings me closer to Allah.

Maybe you will finally learn enough
get you turned back the other way.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Maybe you will finally learn enough
get you turned back the other way.

If i can learn and understand enough to come closer to Allah that is my main thought, but it would be very good if my explenations about my belief become good enough that anyone who i speak with can understand the meaning of what i trying to say and one of the things i would have to do is to relax my mind a bit more

 

[Shakeel]

How can my understanding be far from what Allah actually mean by his teaching? Because i have not been on the path of Sufism for very long, so i am still learning, and i do not blindly read the quran and memorize it and that is all.

I don't know why you keep referring to "blindly reading and memorising." You will never find the truth from sufism or any logic. And I have already provided you an example of praying to the dead. How about you ask you teachers or other sufis why your doctrine contradicts the Quran.

The comment about the Atheists has to do with that since they ask a million questions about the teaching that i practice, if i do not know the answer, i must look for it in the teaching, then understand it. and then come back to the Atheist to tell what i found. That is a part of the spiritual awakening. and actually it brings me closer to Allah.

Except you generalised it to Muslims, you didn't specify it to you and in any case it is unwise for someone who doesn't understand the basics and who doesn't have a strong faith or even the correct beliefs. You have the Quran and you want atheists to tell you about it and to verify your thoughts. You also seem eager to please them.

What is "spiritual awakening"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't know why you keep referring to "blindly reading and memorising." You will never find the truth from sufism or any logic. And I have already provided you an example of praying to the dead. How about you ask you teachers or other sufis why your doctrine contradicts the Quran.

Except you generalised it to Muslims, you didn't specify it to you and in any case it is unwise for someone who doesn't understand the basics and who doesn't have a strong faith or even the correct beliefs. You have the Quran and you want atheists to tell you about it and to verify your thoughts. You also seem eager to please them.

What is "spiritual awakening"?

Feel free to think i can not find truth in Sufism I dont judge you for thinking so.
Each time i speak with my teach i have question, and i gain understanding when listening to him. It is a part of sufism to have a guide/teacher who lead you toward deeper understanding from within (heart)
Sufism does not contradict the Quran, the teaching is from the Quran, Hadith, Sunnah and scripturs from past sufi masters. so it take long time to gain correct understanding.

Spiritual awakening is when ego has been controlled/ ended, that is when we see the full truth from the teaching and we enter in near Allahs (in my understanding)

 

[Shakeel]

Sufism does not contradict the Qura

So what about the praying to the dead part? What hadiths do you follow?

Where does Islam teach you to do away with your ego?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So what about the praying to the dead part? What hadiths do you follow?

Where does Islam teach you to do away with your ego?

It is not praying to the dead or worshipping the dead. a part of sufism is to go to the grave of the saints and speak with them to gain deeper wisdom.
I dont know how much you know about Sufism but it is a esoteric path.

Sufism is another name for Esoteric Knowledge, dealing in enlightenment, transformation & strengthening of your souls & auxiliary spirits. It’s folly for humans to exclude spirituality from religion.

Indeed the nafs that overwhelmingly commands a person to do sin.[12:53]

25:43] Have you seen the one whose god is his own ego? ... Consequently, GOD sends him astray, despite his knowledge, seals his hearing and his mind, and places a veil on his eyes

 

[SalixIncendium]

A lot of people do this. See "the problem of evil"

I don't know what to make of this.

What does this have to do with what I said.

How much is "a lot?"

Where am I supposed to find "the problem of evil?"