It is man's fault, not God's fault

[Audie]

If it were perfect, it would not contain beings who kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc. Assuming you find all those qualities to be suboptimal.

I think I would have done a much better job with half of the omnipotence and omniscience.

Ciao

- viole

Seriously. It is perfect, but everything it made is bad.

 

[viole]

Seriously. It is perfect, but everything it made is bad.

It is perfectly bad

Ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are and they are wonderfully created, but they have a free will and they choose how they behave.

So:

- humans are part of God's design
- humans are imperfect
- God's design is perfect

Do you understand that you're contradicting yourself?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All human beings have made a covenant with God according to Islam.

Speak for yourself, bub. I certainly haven't made any covenants with any deities.

 

[Audie]

It is perfectly bad

Ciao

- viole

How did I not realize God had that divine idea.

 

[Audie]

Speak for yourself, bub. I certainly haven't made any covenants with any deities.

He only fancies he did.

 

[Shakeel]

So even Islam say Allah is the only God to follow, that does not mean muslims can or should force others to belive, nor does it mean we should speak bad about other religions or atheists.

It isn't possible to force someone to believe. We are commanded to guide people to Islam because we know all other religions are either fabricated or abrogated. We can say the truth about atheism and other religions. They are false and the people who die disbelieving in Islam after having received the message will be in hell for an eternity.

Al-imraan 85 "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Al-A'raf 40 "To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin."

Al-Imraan 104 "And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful."

Notice the word "wrong" in the above verse is al munkar, which means doing something Allah has prohibited us from doing or failing to do something Allah has commanded us to do.

Al-imraan 118 "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."

 

[Spirit of Light]

It isn't possible to force someone to believe. We are commanded to guide people to Islam because we know all other religions are either fabricated or abrogated. We can say the truth about atheism and other religions. They are false and the people who die disbelieving in Islam after having received the message will be in hell for an eternity.

Al-imraan 85 "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Al-A'raf 40 "To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin."

Al-Imraan 104 "And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful."

Notice the word "wrong" in the above verse is al munkar, which means doing something Allah has prohibited us from doing or failing to do something Allah has commanded us to do.

Al-imraan 118 "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."

I am very aware of what the teaching saying to muslims.
What i tried to say is that as muslims even we do not believe in other than Allah and Muhammad, we should be respectful toward those who do not believe like we do. if we going to one day find unity with every human being it is silly to make them look at islam as something bad or wrong.
I have my self tried to "Islam is better then your religion" kind of comments, and honestly it does not work well in RF Because there is a multitude of other religious people here who have their understanding and experience in their personal religious or non religious life.

Yes personally i believe the teaching of Allah is the right for me, i found so much that i never found in other religions. But i can not expect everyone to think like me.
Being a servant of Allah is not about pushing other people down, it is about being good to anyone we meet in life. (that is how i see what islam is about)

 

[Audie]

It isn't possible to force someone to believe. We are commanded to guide people to Islam because we know all other religions are either fabricated or abrogated. We can say the truth about atheism and other religions. They are false and the people who die disbelieving in Islam after having received the message will be in hell for an eternity.

Al-imraan 85 "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Al-A'raf 40 "To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin."

Al-Imraan 104 "And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong, and these it is that shall be successful."

Notice the word "wrong" in the above verse is al munkar, which means doing something Allah has prohibited us from doing or failing to do something Allah has commanded us to do.

Al-imraan 118 "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."

Perhaps you "can: tell the truth but are
clesrly disinclined to do so

 

[dybmh]

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

Respectfully, I don't think this is an accurate description. Do people have a choice whether or not they are created?

I think it's fair to blame the maker if the creation did not have full disclosure of the hazards and the opportunity to decline prior to being created.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Welcome Shakeel!

Ah, you're talking about the problem of evil.

Problem of evil

My problem with this is that god could have designed the rules of existence to become anything he wanted... And untold, incalculable suffering is what we are left with. I see it every day in the hospital I work at.

So!... What's the way around Epicurean's Paradox?

 

[Audie]

Welcome Shakeel!

Ah, you're talking about the problem of evil.

Problem of evil

My problem with this is that god could have designed the rules of existence to become anything he wanted... And untold, incalculable suffering is what we are left with. I see it every day in the hospital I work at.

So!... What's the way around Epicurean's Paradox?

Workaround. Eze- Peeze.

"Stockholm syndrome "

 

[Spirit of Light]

When i think of it. Atheists and non muslims (believers in other religions) should actually be a muslims best friend, because in this way, the muslim will be tested and tested again of how well they understand the teaching of Allah, and to practice it correctly, when the muslim faces difficulties from those who do not believe in Islam.
So instead of pushing them away we should keep them close so they will comment on everything we do wrong according to the teaching Allah gave us

 

[Shakeel]

I am very aware of what the teaching saying to muslims.
What i tried to say is that as muslims even we do not believe in other than Allah and Muhammad, we should be respectful toward those who do not believe like we do. if we going to one day find unity with every human being it is silly to make them look at islam as something bad or wrong.
I have my self tried to "Islam is better then your religion" kind of comments, and honestly it does not work well in RF Because there is a multitude of other religious people here who have their understanding and experience in their personal religious or non religious life.

Yes personally i believe the teaching of Allah is the right for me, i found so much that i never found in other religions. But i can not expect everyone to think like me.
Being a servant of Allah is not about pushing other people down, it is about being good to anyone we meet in life. (that is how i see what islam is about)

There's a difference between being respectful to someone and accepting their beliefs. I will not sugarcoat Islam for those who dislike it.

Where did I "push other people down"?
I think this is a problem with you that you need to fix because there is no benefit in being too sensitive. As a man you would be the guardian and protector of your wife. Would you then throw your hands up and say, she does what she wants, I can't tell her what to do. And your children? And those people you want to see in Jannah and not in hell?

Was the Prophet (ﷺ) disrespectful? Was Prophet Abraham disrespectful when he broke the idols?

What kind of unity are you talking about?

Islam is much more than just being good to people and being good to people - what is it? Is it not caring if they go to hell or not? Would you rather your neighbours were in hell for an eternity than possibly hurt their feelings in this short life?

 

[ChristineM]

God created angels who

Evidence please

Killing is still permissable in many situations. I'm sure you agree.

No don't agree

Which war was unwarranted and how? Can you cite the passage and the background so we're talking about the same thing?

Any war fought for religious principles us unwarranted, any war where one protagonist or both say my mythical beard in the sky is better than your mythical ...

No. I don't. The translation says "pleasing" and if you think about sex to begin with all you can think of is just that, but the word in the dictionary is evil or bad. You would have to bring your evidence to prove the verse means what you think it mean since it isn't obvious from the text itself.

Adam and Eve were not children.

So you think a young attractive woman who has just seen her husband and brothers slaughtered is going to willingly please the murderer who has taken her captive??? If that'show you excuse it then ok.

Where in the bible does it say adam and eves age?

And I don't understand your objection to the fact that the Bible prohibits backbiting. You took it in mockery, but why?

I don't object, i just find it rather hypocritical given the teachings.

Not really. It is an agreement. The two don't have to meet. How can there be a relationship with someone you barely know and barely meet

Ehm, betrothed, sure they dont have to meet but it also means you dont run around getting pregnant by any god or roman soldier that turns your fancy

And of course you are entitled to the opinions you formed by reading whichever version of the bible suites you. The fact that
A/ there is no falsifiable evidence to suggest any god exist
B/ there is no original bible to compare any of the current versions with
Only shows that what you have is opinion.

And can i please ask why you think everyone should have read the bible? Have you read the the Adi Granth or the Kojiki? They are holy books with just as much authority to those who follow them as the bible has for a christian.

 

[Spirit of Light]

There's a difference between being respectful to someone and accepting their beliefs. I will not sugarcoat Islam for those who dislike it.

Where did I "push other people down"?
I think this is a problem with you that you need to fix because there is no benefit in being too sensitive. As a man you would be the guardian and protector of your wife. Would you then throw your hands up and say, she does what she wants, I can't tell her what to do. And your children? And those people you want to see in Jannah and not in hell?

Was the Prophet (ﷺ) disrespectful? Was Prophet Abraham disrespectful when he broke the idols?

What kind of unity are you talking about?

Islam is much more than just being good to people and being good to people - what is it? Is it not caring if they go to hell or not? Would you rather your neighbours were in hell for an eternity than possibly hurt their feelings in this short life?

For me Islam is a personal journey to get close to Allah, and i have no need to hurt or harm others who do not belive what i do. I accept that they do have a different belief then I do. if i do not respect their choice why should they respect mine?

I have no wife or girlfriend
But if I do get married one day. I will treat her with respect and instead of telling her what to do, i will guide her if i can. and protect her with my life if needed. But i have no need to be a Boss of a future wife.
But as of now i will stay single.

 

[Shakeel]

When i think of it. Atheists and non muslims (believers in other religions) should actually be a muslims best friend, because in this way, the muslim will be tested and tested again of how well they understand the teaching of Allah, and to practice it correctly, when the muslim faces difficulties from those who do not believe in Islam.
So instead of pushing them away we should keep them close so they will comment on everything we do wrong according to the teaching Allah gave us

That is contrary to the Qur'an.

Al-Mujaadilah 22 "You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah. Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful."

Surat Hud 113 "And incline not to those who do wrong, or the Fire will seize you; and ye have no protectors other than Allah, nor shall ye be helped."

Al-Maaidah 51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

 

[SigurdReginson]

When i think of it. Atheists and non muslims (believers in other religions) should actually be a muslims best friend, because in this way, the muslim will be tested and tested again of how well they understand the teaching of Allah, and to practice it correctly, when the muslim faces difficulties from those who do not believe in Islam.
So instead of pushing them away we should keep them close so they will comment on everything we do wrong according to the teaching Allah gave us

I think that's true for everyone! Everyone should always consider dissenting views. If we never challenge our views, it's easy to slip into self delusion!

 

[Spirit of Light]

That is contrary to the Qur'an.

Al-Mujaadilah 22 "You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah. Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful."

Surat Hud 113 "And incline not to those who do wrong, or the Fire will seize you; and ye have no protectors other than Allah, nor shall ye be helped."

Al-Maaidah 51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Again. i know what the Quran says, and i do not disagree that that is what the teaching tell. But...in a time where a muslim working on his or her Nafs (ego) it is actually very important to be able to control one self when someone pushing our limits of what we like or dislike.

It seems like the way i practice Islam is more in a practical way and using the teaching in my life. and not just reading the Quran memeorizing it and base everything i say or do in a verse. (this is something sufism has done for a very long time)

 

[Shakeel]

So:

- humans are part of God's design
- humans are imperfect
- God's design is perfect

Do you understand that you're contradicting yourself?

Humans were created in an excellent form, but their behaviour is not necessarily excellent.

They have the capacity to do right. They are able to tell right from wrong. Choosing to do wrong is a fault in the doer, not in the creator.