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It is man's fault, not God's fault

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other Gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

I believe in a different God than you. And in the end I will fight you if you claim objective authority over me.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Welcome to RF.

So you absolve your god of faulty design? Surely you say he is omni everything so he/she/it knew that his design would not follow his wishes but rather follow his actions

Don't, kill, the god of the bible is responsible either directly or indirectly for over 2 million deaths in the bible alone.

Don't steel, yet the god of the bible commands his followers to murder male enemies and steal their livestock, women and children. At the same time forcing the captives into sex slavery.

Lie. Surely the deception of god in the Adam and Eve story is what is responsible for much evil?

Back biting. Just so long as the other person is one of your gods followers. But those who do not follow his hypocrisy are doomed to massacre.

False witness, see back biting

Slander, see back biting

Deceive, see lie

Commit adultery, yet the leader of christianity, jesus himself was conceived while his mother was in a relationship.

Homosexual acts. The bible actually says nothing about homosexuality, the hatred of gays is simply down to individuals religious interpretation of a small handful of verses

Worship other gods, kind of selfish don't you think considering there have been/are over 4000 gods worshipped (excluding Hindu gods)

Make images, to my understanding just about every christian church has an image od jesus, many have depictions of god.


True that many have heard of the claimed word of god, also true that many do not believe in your god, and some have no belief in any gods.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Welcome to RF.

So you absolve your god of faulty design? Surely you say he is omni everything so he/she/it knew that his design would not follow his wishes but rather follow his actions

Don't, kill, the god of the bible is responsible either directly or indirectly for over 2 million deaths in the bible alone.

Don't steel, yet the god of the bible commands his followers to murder male enemies and steal their livestock, women and children. At the same time forcing the captives into sex slavery.

Lie. Surely the deception of god in the Adam and Eve story is what is responsible for much evil?

Back biting. Just so long as the other person is one of your gods followers. But those who do not follow his hypocrisy are doomed to massacre.

False witness, see back biting

Slander, see back biting

Deceive, see lie

Commit adultery, yet the leader of christianity, jesus himself was conceived while his mother was in a relationship.

Homosexual acts. The bible actually says nothing about homosexuality, the hatred of gays is simply down to individuals religious interpretation of a small handful of verses

Worship other gods, kind of selfish don't you think considering there have been/are over 4000 gods worshipped (excluding Hindu gods)

Make images, to my understanding just about every christian church has an image od jesus, many have depictions of god.


True that many have heard of the claimed word of god, also true that many do not believe in your god, and some have no belief in any gods.

How come you answer with Christianity to a member of Islam?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?
No.

It's man's fault that he invented and made up a God in his mind and then absolving his mental puppet from all responsibility as an excuse he's imperfect by no fault of his own.

Still your right in one sense. We do make our own beds in life.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
So you absolve your god of faulty design?
Surely you say he is omni everything so he/she/it knew that his design would not follow his wishes but rather follow his actions

Don't, kill, the god of the bible is either directly or indirectly for over 2 million deaths in the bible alone.
His design is perfect as Abrahamic religions teach.

He knows everything. God's actions are not comparable to our actions. He is all-knowing and knows what is best for us. We don't know. He created us, and we should obey His commands. No one can command Him.

I should have said, don't murder, because killing is permitted under certain circumstances. It is unlawful killing that is prohibited. With your logic God has "killed" everyone who has so far died and will kill us too, but God has created us mortal. We are not meant to live forever and God does perfect justice to everyone. A murderer cannot be said to do justice because he disobeys the law and because he is not all-knowing. God is not one of us. We are His creation. He is not part of the creation.
Don't steel, yet the god of the bible commands his followers to murder male enemies and steal their livestock, women and children. At the same time forcing the captives into sex slavery.

Lie. Surely the deception of god in the Adam and Eve story is what is responsible for much evil?

Back biting. Just so long as the other person is one of your gods followers. But those who do not follow his hypocrisy are doomed to massacre.
You don't cite passages, but I assume by murdering male enemies and stealing their possessions and families, you mean war. That is not breaking God's law, is it? If you think it is then which law is that?

Where is a reference to sex slavery?

What deception? God told Adam and Eve clearly what not to do just like you are told clearly what not to do.

Both the Qur'an and the Bible prohibit back biting explicitly.

Al-hujurat, ayah 12 "O you who believe! avoid most of suspicion, for surely suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? But you abhor it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful."

Romans 1:28-30 "Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;"
False witness, see back biting Slander, see back biting
I don't understand your point.
Commit adultery, yet the leader of christianity, jesus himself was conceived while his mother was in a relationship.
I do believe the biblical view is that she was pledged to be married — are you trying to slander her? The Bible and the Quran testify she was a virgin.
Homosexual acts. The bible actually says nothing about homosexuality, the hatred of gays is simply down to individuals religious interpretation of a small handful of verses Worship other gods, kind of selfish don't you think considering there have been/are over 4000 gods worshipped (excluding Hindu gods) Make images, to my understanding just about every christian church has an image od jesus, many have depictions of god.
The Bible is explicit about its condemnation of homosexual behaviour, as is the Qur'an.

Leviticus 18:22 "‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."

Al-a'raf 80-81 "And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?
Most surely you come to males in lust besides females; nay you are an extravagant people."

You are moving on to claiming if some people do something it must be okay.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
His design is perfect as Abrahamic religions teach

Ahh the books say so, yet innocent children still lie of leukaemia...

He knows everything

Except how to design a perfect human who unquestioningly follows is hypocrisy.

I should have said, don't murder, because killing is permitted under certain circumstances.

Is it? According to a bronze age book? Thinks have changed in 3000+ years of civilisation

You don't cite passages, but I assume by murdering male enemies and stealing their possessions and families, you mean war.

You went passages, yes, unwarranted war against those who do not follow your beliefs

Where is a reference to sex slavery?

You think taking captive women as an i willing wife to use as you will then discarding if she doesn't please you does not amount to sex slavery?

What deception? God told Adam and Eve clearly what not to do just like you are told clearly what not to do.

You tell a child not to eat a sweet, what happens?

Both the Qur'an and the Bible prohibit back biting explicitly

And?

I do believe the biblical view is that she was pledged to be married — are you trying to slander her?

No i am not attempting slender, a pledge to be married forms a relationship.

The Bible is explicit about its condemnation of homosexual behaviour, as is the Qur'an.

Yes i understand some modern translations are written to impose hatred
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You are moving on to claiming if some people do something it must be okay.

Do not attempt to dictate my mind.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

We do not believe you can identify even
one person who has expresses duch inane
thoughts as you claim.

it would not make any sense for a Christian
to say such things, far less for an atheist.


Is there some point in preaching things
we've all heard 10,000 times? "God is
perfect" blah blah.

What do you propose to accomplish?

Hint: if you are addressing atheists you can just say so.

You will have less than zero success.
 
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Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Ahh the books say so,
What did you think I was referring to when I said everyone has heard God's commands - an inner voice?
Except how to design a perfect human who unquestioningly follows is hypocrisy.

Is it? According to a bronze age book? Thinks have changed in 3000+ years of civilisation

You went passages, yes, unwarranted war against those who do not follow your beliefs
God created angels who obey God's every command.

Killing is still permissable in many situations. I'm sure you agree.

Which war was unwarranted and how? Can you cite the passage and the background so we're talking about the same thing?
You think taking captive women as an i willing wife to use as you will then discarding if she doesn't please you does not amount to sex slavery?

You tell a child not to eat a sweet, what happens?

And?
No. I don't. The translation says "pleasing" and if you think about sex to begin with all you can think of is just that, but the word in the dictionary is evil or bad. You would have to bring your evidence to prove the verse means what you think it mean since it isn't obvious from the text itself.

Adam and Eve were not children.

And I don't understand your objection to the fact that the Bible prohibits backbiting. You took it in mockery, but why?

No i am not attempting slender, a pledge to be married forms a relation
Not really. It is an agreement. The two don't have to meet. How can there be a relationship with someone you barely know and barely meet?
Yes i understand some modern translations are written to impose hatred
Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

They are both killed.

But then Deuteronomy 22:25
Says: '“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die." That only the rapist dies. Can you find an instance in the Bible where the rape victim is excecuted?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.
*I* haven't heard them. Not from God, anyhow.

I've heard plenty of people who claim to speak for God saying various things, but I've seen no particular reason to believe that any of them are genuine. I've also seen no reason to take your version over the many other versions out there.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.
That's right: you don't get to order people around.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?
Yes, possibly. Depends.

But all else being equal, a device that people can use properly intuitively is better than one that you need an instruction manual to use properly.

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?
That depends: is the person warning me also the person who gave me my disobedient nature?

Also: what's the command? For instance, if an abusive spouse tells their partner, "if you try to leave me, I'll kill you," I'm still going to blame the abuser for the "consequences" of any "disobedience."

Obedience is only required when the authority is legitimate... so please: explain to us why we should obey you.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
His design is perfect as Abrahamic religions teach.
If it were perfect, it would not contain beings who kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc. Assuming you find all those qualities to be suboptimal.

I think I would have done a much better job with half of the omnipotence and omniscience.

Ciao

- viole
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
His design is perfect as Abrahamic religions teach.

He knows everything. God's actions are not comparable to our actions. He is all-knowing and knows what is best for us. We don't know. He created us, and we should obey His commands. No one can command Him.
Say someone designs and builds a house. Then, termites get in and compromise the house's structure.

Now... the designer did foresee the termite issue, so he took precautions: at every place that was vulnerable to termites, he had a little sign erected saying "termites do not enter! No termites allowed!"

Would you say that the designer:

- made a perfect design; it's just that the termites were disobedient, or
- made a poor design, because he failed to properly address a foreseeable problem?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

Here are my questions.

Not killing is not unique to abrahamic traditions. How do you know if someone is following the abrahamic God by not killing?

These things only apply to those who signed the contract. Why blame the person for not signing especially if he took time to read the fine print before deciding not to?

Sounds like a sells trick. Coersion. Why wouldn't the owner of a business not be held at the same standards if it more than his employees...and why would that same manager repremand someone who doesn't work for him?
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
If it were perfect, it would not contain beings who kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc. Assuming you find all those qualities to be suboptimal.

I think I would have done a much better job with half of the omnipotence and omniscience.

Ciao

- viole
I didn't say humans are perfect, but God's design is. Human beings are as good as they want to be. Nevertheless, they have the capacity to be good. That so many choose to be something else is their choice.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Here are my questions.

Not killing is not unique to abrahamic traditions. How do you know if someone is following the abrahamic God by not killing?

These things only apply to those who signed the contract. Why blame the person for not signing especially if he took time to read the fine print before deciding not to?

Sounds like a sells trick. Coersion. Why wouldn't the owner of a business not be held at the same standards if it more than his employees...and why would that same manager repremand someone who doesn't work for him?
We generally don't know. Each is responsible for themselves.

All human beings have made a covenant with God according to Islam.

All human beings are slaves of Allah.

Because Allah is the Creator and the ruler, no one can command Him or make demands on Him. Comparing Him to a business owner is simply not valid because a business owner is a man and his employees are men. They are the same.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?
Humans have free will when it comes to what God or teaching they may follow or believe in. So even Islam say Allah is the only God to follow, that does not mean muslims can or should force others to belive, nor does it mean we should speak bad about other religions or atheists. A muslim can of course say what they believe and believe for them selvs that Allah is the only God for them. Just like others may think that about the God they read about in other religious scriptures.

A big reason for religious discussions or debate ofren get heated is when one or both side in the discussion get stubborn and stop listening to the other side. It is ok to listen to others, but we may not agree because we have different understanding within religious teachings.
 
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