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15 dollar an hour minimum wage hike....... oh oh..

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I’m not for a $15 minimum wage, but I’m not against it either. I am against the feds implementing a $15 minimum wage. It should be up to each state as each state is in the best position to determine what’s best for its residents. $15 may make sense in some places but not others. Also, should their be a distinction between minors and others? Should a 16 year old scooping ice cream at a diner get the same pay as an adult. Are we deciding minimum wage is a living wage? Those have always been two different things in my book.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I’m not for a $15 minimum wage, but I’m not against it either. I am against the feds implementing a $15 minimum wage. It should be up to each state as each state is in the best position to determine what’s best for its residents. $15 may make sense in some places but not others.
So you don't think that $15 is reasonable as a lower limit, but allow states to implement higher minimum wages if they see fit?

Also, should their be a distinction between minors and others? Should a 16 year old scooping ice cream at a diner get the same pay as an adult.
Should employers have a financial incentive to discriminate based on age?

Are we deciding minimum wage is a living wage? Those have always been two different things in my book.
If there are people trying to make a living on minimum wage, then minimum wage is going to affect living wage.

There's also the other side of things: if a full-time worker's income is so low that they qualify for social programs for low-income people (e.g. Medicaid, public housing, SNAP), then the employer is effectively getting their labour subsidized by the government.

I think it's reasonable to set the minimum wage high enough that no full-time worker qualifies for - or needs - any of these social assistance programs. The cost savings could be used to pay for a more thoughtfully planned grant program for businesses... one where the subsidy is tied to a company's community or economic benefit instead of how little they pay their workers.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So you don't think that $15 is reasonable as a lower limit, but allow states to implement higher minimum wages if they see fit?


Should employers have a financial incentive to discriminate based on age?


If there are people trying to make a living on minimum wage, then minimum wage is going to affect living wage.

There's also the other side of things: if a full-time worker's income is so low that they qualify for social programs for low-income people (e.g. Medicaid, public housing, SNAP), then the employer is effectively getting their labour subsidized by the government.

I think it's reasonable to set the minimum wage high enough that no full-time worker qualifies for - or needs - any of these social assistance programs. The cost savings could be used to pay for a more thoughtfully planned grant program for businesses... one where the subsidy is tied to a company's community or economic benefit instead of how little they pay their workers.
It’s up to the state. It might be lower or higher than $15.

Age discrimination laws don’t protect workers under 40.

Trying to make a living off minimum wage is probably ineffective. I personally don’t believe the minimum wage was intended to be a living wage.

I appreciate your thoughts re business subsidies versus social assistance programs for workers. It’s an interesting thought.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Trying to make a living off minimum wage is probably ineffective. I personally don’t believe the minimum wage was intended to be a living wage.
Keep in mind the $15/hour is just to ensure everyone is basically at the poverty line.
I made $13/hour as a case manager. Or, in other words, I was a full time, white-collar professional with a degree who still qualified for some low-income assistance.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A minimum wage job is not just a Summer job, or starter job. Millions of adults are subsisting on such jobs, as Shadow Wolf pointed out. In many places it's hard to find any job.
$15/h is a minimum you might subsist on in low cost of living regions. In expensive places it should be higher.

We were able to afford a living wage 50 years ago, why is it impossible today?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Canadian news regularly features stories about asylum seekers sneaking across the US border into Canada.
I was ready to do so back in the late 1960's. I was strongly opposed to the Vietnam "War" on both strategic but especially moral grounds, and my wife and I were prepared to go live there if I was drafted.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I was ready to do so back in the late 1960's. I was strongly opposed to the Vietnam "War" on both strategic but especially moral grounds, and my wife and I were prepared to go live there if I was drafted.

I was also so inclined if when our son turned 18 and there was still a draft.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
A minimum wage job is not just a Summer job, or starter job. Millions of adults are subsisting on such jobs, as Shadow Wolf pointed out. In many places it's hard to find any job.
$15/h is a minimum you might subsist on in low cost of living regions. In expensive places it should be higher.

We were able to afford a living wage 50 years ago, why is it impossible today?
Back then, capitalists still believed a communist revolution to be within the realm of the possible, so it looks like it would have been at least a worthwhile tactic to scare them into giving concessions to the working class - but that was long ago and things seem to be very different these days.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
I’m not for a $15 minimum wage, but I’m not against it either. I am against the feds implementing a $15 minimum wage. It should be up to each state as each state is in the best position to determine what’s best for its residents. $15 may make sense in some places but not others. Also, should their be a distinction between minors and others? Should a 16 year old scooping ice cream at a diner get the same pay as an adult. Are we deciding minimum wage is a living wage? Those have always been two different things in my book.
You could go even further and have the government simply enforce union mandated minimum wages for each company, or even collective contracts. That way, you'd have the government out of the decisionmaking process altogether while knowing that the interests of local workers are being promoted.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You could go even further and have the government simply enforce union mandated minimum wages for each company, or even collective contracts. That way, you'd have the government out of the decisionmaking process altogether while knowing that the interests of local workers are being promoted.
Union mandated minimum wages? Unions don’t mandate anything. There’s a collective bargaining agreement.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
If I had to guess, it's because you're only watching US news.

Canadian news regularly features stories about asylum seekers sneaking across the US border into Canada. An example:

Asylum seekers continue to cross Canada-U.S. border despite shutdown

You can find similar stories worldwide of people trying to flee one country to get to somewhere with better conditions, whether they're going from North Africa into Europe, or from Southeast Asia into Australia, or from the US into Canada, etc., etc.
I'm strongly considering going there once I have my masters so my healthcare expenses don't keep bleeding me dry.
And I also did consider jumping the border during this pandemic and telling them I'm fleeing for my life because people here will not take covid seriously. Not seriously considered though. But an interesting hypothetical of a consideration.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
They already do. It’s called the National Labor Relations Act.
I have never even had the option of joining a union. One company I worked for went to illegal lengths to discourage unionization. Many states are "right to work," which cripples collective bargaining and unions.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
They already do. It’s called the National Labor Relations Act.
As far as I can tell, in most States unions are de facto completely powerless, and business owners can hire and fire people at will and with little to no restrictions as to their wages or working conditions.

EDIT: And as @Shadow Wolf already explained very well, a lot of companies disdain unionization to the point of either firing employees who are suspected of bringing in unions, or at the very least making their lives very, very miserable. This is due to aforementioned freedom to hire and fire people at will.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
As far as I can tell, in most States unions are de facto completely powerless, and business owners can hire and fire people at will and with little to no restrictions as to their wages or working conditions.
Pretty much so, and it's a rather small minority of workers here in the States that are unionized. Many states have passed "right to work" laws that make it more difficult for unions.

Thus, in most cases at least, the majority of businesses operate on an authoritarian model versus a more egalitarian model, which is one reason why middle-income and lower-income wages have stagnated while upper-income earnings have soared in recent decades. Alan Greenspan warned us that this arrangement is very harmful for the country as the wealthy have the "rules" stacked in their favor in a "Let them eat cake!" manner.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
EDIT: And as @Shadow Wolf already explained very well, a lot of companies disdain unionization to the point of either firing employees who are suspected of bringing in unions, or at the very least making their lives very, very miserable. This is due to aforementioned freedom to hire and fire people at will.
At the end of the day, corporations despise unions because paying workers more hurts profits.
This goes against the Capitalist model.

Take a look at In-N-Out Burger and their business model for paying employees. This employer is doing the right thing. "The focus is on customer first, employees second and growth last."

Serving food in a “warm friendly manner” requires satisfied employees. To that end, In-N-Out pays premium salaries over competitors (minimum $10.50 per hour) and offers many employee benefits such as flexible schedules, paid vacations, free meals and 401K plans.

Additionally, company management places high value on training and internal promotion opportunities – restaurant managers can earn up to $150,000 per year (industry comparable: $72,000) and average fourteen years’ experience. Collectively, these benefits and policies boost morale, loyalty and drive an employee turnover rate of 50%, 4-6x less than the industry average.
A great product is only half of the equation at In-N-Out. The workers at these restaurants are lovingly referred to as associates and are paid exceptionally well (associates earn approximately $2.00 over minimum wage and manager salaries are often in six figures). Managers undergo training programs at “In-N-Out University” which focuses on quality, customer service and cleanliness. Associates are rigorously trained and often cross-trained so that they can perform multiple responsibilities within the restaurant, reducing cycle times.

Additionally, the deliberately small menu allows associates to easily master the production process, leading to process efficiency and a reduction in overall throughput time. Many associates rise through the ranks and are promoted to managerial positions. Promoting within the company, high wages, and engaging work are tools that In-N-Out uses to reduce employee attrition. In-N-Out realizes that their employees are a huge part in the company’s and individual restaurant success.

In-N-Out isn’t your ordinary Fast Food Burger Chain - Technology and Operations Management.
In-N-Out Burger: “Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication” - Technology and Operations Management
 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have never even had the option of joining a union. One company I worked for went to illegal lengths to discourage unionization. Many states are "right to work," which cripples collective bargaining and unions.
Companies discourage unions. That doesn’t mean they’re not an option. If the company did something illegal, contact the NLRB.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As far as I can tell, in most States unions are de facto completely powerless, and business owners can hire and fire people at will and with little to no restrictions as to their wages or working conditions.

EDIT: And as @Shadow Wolf already explained very well, a lot of companies disdain unionization to the point of either firing employees who are suspected of bringing in unions, or at the very least making their lives very, very miserable. This is due to aforementioned freedom to hire and fire people at will.
Anecdotal stories aren’t reality. Like I told her, contact the NLRB.
 
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