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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
They didn't believe it, because there was no such teaching floating around yet. Christianity had not yet been invented.

Progressive revelation is a consistent theme in the Bible. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

Answer: The second coming of Christ is a major tenet of Christian theology, and we eagerly look forward to our “blessed hope” (Titus 2:13). But the knowledge that the Messiah would have two comings came to humanity gradually, as God’s revelation to mankind was progressive.

The Old Testament clearly teaches that the Messiah would come, but it does not explicitly say that He would come twice. The information God revealed about the Messiah started very basic, with more detail added bit by bit. People living in later times knew more than those who lived earlier. Abraham knew more about the purposes of God than did Noah. David knew more than Abraham. The prophets knew more than David. And finally, the apostles in the New Testament knew more than the prophets. The apostles after the resurrection knew more than they did before the resurrection.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So? None of this replies to what I said. None of it.

You said that Christianity had not been invented yet. Christianity is about having a relationship with God. It's not about the church doctrines. I know Christians who don't go to church and unbelievers who go to church sometimes.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That doesn't mean sinless.

For the Messiah to have died for our sins, there would have to be a sinless substitute. None of us could pay the price of sin because we are sinners. God is infinite, and he can pay the infinite price of sin in a finite amount of time.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
You really know how to misread verses. The servant isn't sinless and doesn't come back to life, except the normal resurrection at the end of time.

Why do you think there is an end of times? I believe that there is, because everything has a beginning and an end, and a sinful world wasn't meant to go on forever. It isn't how things were meant to be. God didn't create sinners. In the same way that there is that order to things, the concept of the Messiah has to do with God is righteous and just and holy and he must punish sin. Just like a judge who lets a criminal go would not be just, God cannot let sin go unpunished. But God didn't want us to have to make the payment. So he reached out to us in his love.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why do you think there is an end of times? I believe that there is, because everything has a beginning and an end, and a sinful world wasn't meant to go on forever. It isn't how things were meant to be. God didn't create sinners. In the same way that there is that order to things, the concept of the Messiah has to do with God is righteous and just and holy and he must punish sin. Just like a judge who lets a criminal go would not be just, God cannot let sin go unpunished. But God didn't want us to have to make the payment. So he reached out to us in his love.
It is convenient for me to roughly think of things in terms of "Now, Messianic Age, Resurrection and World to Come" since that is what the prophets teach.

I don't think of God as someone who punishes for the sake of making things even steven. That's complicated and takes into consideration whether we actually did things of our own free will without interference from our biology or our environment, etc., and I'm not sure anyone would end up punished. I do think of God as a Father who loves us, and who is willing to discipline us in order to teach us. The Jewish idea of Gehenna as a temporary hell where we are rehabilitated for the world to come fits in very nicely with that.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, and No.

God doing all things decently and in order and not being the author of confusion is why the Messiah is a Savior. Just like there are laws in the human world that have penalties when people break them, the same concept exists with God's laws. Jesus took our place so we wouldn't have to pay the price for our sins. Nobody can stand in the presence of God without the Messiah covering their sins. God is perfect, and we are sinful.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
For the Messiah to have died for our sins, there would have to be a sinless substitute. None of us could pay the price of sin because we are sinners. God is infinite, and he can pay the infinite price of sin in a finite amount of time.
It is just not necessary. You have been given a twisted teaching about atonement. It began with the notion that only blood would atone, and ended with the idea that the Messiah would die for your sins.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You said that Christianity had not been invented yet. Christianity is about having a relationship with God. It's not about the church doctrines. I know Christians who don't go to church and unbelievers who go to church sometimes.
Christianity is a theological system where Jesus is believed to be the Messiah who died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is coming again. Salvation is through faith/belief in him (protestants would say by faith alone). Is there a person in America who hasn't been told that the gospel is "For God so loved the world that he gave his only beloved son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."??? I could write a book on Christianity, but wanting to keep things to a simple paragraph, that's what I have to say. Throw in the Trinitarian doctrine for good measure. None of this was around during Jesus ministry. It was invented later by his disciples, and mostly Paul.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Christianity is a theological system where Jesus is believed to be the Messiah who died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is coming again. Salvation is through faith/belief in him (protestants would say by faith alone). Is there a person in America who hasn't been told that the gospel is "For God so loved the world that he gave his only beloved son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."??? I could write a book on Christianity, but wanting to keep things to a simple paragraph, that's what I have to say. Throw in the Trinitarian doctrine for good measure. None of this was around during Jesus ministry. It was invented later by his disciples, and mostly Paul.

What does it have to do with Jesus, then? It's like saying that monks and nuns and the rosary are essential to following Jesus. It's a non issue. There are non Christian belief systems who have those concepts and Christians who dont. .
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What does it have to do with Jesus, then? It's like saying that monks and nuns and the rosary are essential to following Jesus. It's a non issue. There are non Christian belief systems who have those concepts and Christians who dont. .
What does it have to do with Christianity? Jesus apostles, especially Paul, and the Church which followed, DEFINED Christianity. Not Jesus. Jesus was just a nice Jewish man who tried to be the Messiah and failed. He is probably turning over in his grave that people worship him.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What does it have to do with Christianity? Jesus apostles, especially Paul, and the Church which followed, DEFINED Christianity. Not Jesus. Jesus was just a nice Jewish man who tried to be the Messiah and failed. He is probably turning over in his grave that people worship him.

Whether one believes in the Trinity, the many traditions of Christianity have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, the apostles, or Paul.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What does it have to do with Christianity? Jesus apostles, especially Paul, and the Church which followed, DEFINED Christianity. Not Jesus. Jesus was just a nice Jewish man who tried to be the Messiah and failed. He is probably turning over in his grave that people worship him.

The Trinity doesn't have to be mentioned in the Old Testament for it to be true. The New Testament uses the term Godhead in Colossians 2:9, not the Trinity.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The Trinity is supported by there being progressive revelation in the Old Testament. Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

The Old Testament clearly teaches that the Messiah would come, but it does not explicitly say that He would come twice. The information God revealed about the Messiah started very basic, with more detail added bit by bit. People living in later times knew more than those who lived earlier. Abraham knew more about the purposes of God than did Noah. David knew more than Abraham. The prophets knew more than David. And finally, the apostles in the New Testament knew more than the prophets. The apostles after the resurrection knew more than they did before the resurrection.

The term yachid is never applied to God in the Old Testament. The Trinity: The Old Testament Evidence: A Multi-Personal God

The Oneness of God

The first question is how did the biblical authors, under the inspiration of God, conceive of the oneness of God? There are nine different Hebrew Words which at times are translated as the word "one:"


  • ish, ishah, nephesh, yachid, almoni, echad, gam, badad, chad (Chal.)
While such words as ish (man) or ishah (woman) are sometimes translated "one," they are never applied to God. Since God is not a man or a woman (Num. 23:19), this is what we would expect to find. The same applies to the word nephesh (soul) which is never used to speak of the oneness of God.

The question that comes to mind at this point is, if Unitarians wrote the Bible, which word for oneness would they apply to God? Out of all the words above, there is only one word which would indicate that God is one solitary person. If this word is applied to God in the Bible, this would be quite damaging to the Trinitarian position.

The word is "yachid" and means an absolute or solitary oneness.[1] It is even translated "solitary" in Psalm 68:6 and refers to someone who is absolutely alone. This is its general meaning throughout Scripture.[2]

Unitarians should naturally expect to find that the word yachid was applied to God in the Bible. On the other hand, Trinitarians would not expect to find yachidused of God because they believe that there are three Persons within the Godhead.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Trinity doesn't have to be mentioned in the Old Testament for it to be true.
It is not my intention to disrespect you or your beliefs. I realize that to you the New Testament is the very word of God.

But to me the New Testament is at the very best an intellectual curiosity and at worst false teachings. Personally I don't think Trinitarianism is in the New Testament either, but I don't argue that point with a Christian because, honestly, I just don't have a dog in the race. Certainly, however, it is not in the Tanakh, and the Tanakh teaches against it. God is one and his name is one. Not three in one.

Just a reminder -- I never read your links. Not sure why you continue to paste them.

Be well.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It is just not necessary. You have been given a twisted teaching about atonement. It began with the notion that only blood would atone, and ended with the idea that the Messiah would die for your sins.

How could a sinner pay the infinite price of sin? Without Jesus suffering on the cross for our sins, his death on the cross wouldn't have the meaning that it has.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Because God is an eternal being, when someone sins, they sin against an infinite God. God is infinite in his love but He is also infinite in his justice. If God wasn't just, it would be an insult to his holiness.
That doesn't mean the price of a sin is infinite. It just oesn't follow.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It is not my intention to disrespect you or your beliefs. I realize that to you the New Testament is the very word of God.

But to me the New Testament is at the very best an intellectual curiosity and at worst false teachings. Personally I don't think Trinitarianism is in the New Testament either, but I don't argue that point with a Christian because, honestly, I just don't have a dog in the race. Certainly, however, it is not in the Tanakh, and the Tanakh teaches against it. God is one and his name is one. Not three in one.

Just a reminder -- I never read your links. Not sure why you continue to paste them.

Be well.

There are several difficult sayings attributed to Jesus that the New Testament writers would not have included if they were making up a story about Jesus being God. Following the teachings of Jesus is not a teaching of convenience. For example, according to the New Testament, Jesus:

declares, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
seems to predict incorrectly that he's coming back to earth within a generation (Matthew 24:34)
then says about his second coming, that no one knows the time, "not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son" (Matthew 24:36)
seems to deny his deity by asking the rich young ruler, "Why do you call me good? No one is good-except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
is seen cursing a fig tree for not having figs when it wasn't even the season for figs (Matthew 12:18)
seems unable to do miracles in his hometown, except to heal a few sick people (Mark 6:5)

If the New Testament writers wanted to prove to everyone that Jesus was God, then why did they leave in these difficult sayings that seem to argue against his deity?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
That doesn't mean the price of a sin is infinite. It just oesn't follow.

The amount of time it takes for someone to commit a crime doesn't determine the punishment. Why would God punish someone for eternity for temporary sins?

Why would God punish someone for eternity for temporary sins?
by Matt Slick | Apr 23, 2013 | God, Questions

The reason God would punish someone for eternity for temporal sinscommitted on earth is based on who the sin is against, not on the size of the sins. Let me illustrate. If I were to walk up to you and slap you, you might get angry or even take a swing at me. We’re done (hopefully). If I were to walk up to the President of the United States and slap him, I would be arrested and probably spend years in jail. Why would the exact same “small” offense get such a different result? It is because of who it is against. Likewise, when we move up the chain of command to the infinite God of the universe, it isn’t difficult to see that the consequences are amplified infinitely as well. Therefore, eternal punishment in hell fits the crime – it is against.

Like it or not, when we sin, we sin against God. He is holy and He is righteous, and anything that we do that is contrary to His will – breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4)–properly deserves punishment. Since our offense is against an infinitely holy God, the consequence is likewise infinite, and that is why eternal hell exists.

But also, what about those who have never heard the gospel or who have committed sins that are not aware of? It is, so to speak, not their fault. Why should they suffer such eternal torment for ignorance and accidents of their circumstances?

Biblically speaking, the standard of holiness rests with God, not with our ignorance and not with our circumstances. God says to be holy because He is holy (1 Peter 1:16). The proper standard of righteousness is based on God and is not altered by our situation. Therefore, those who are ignorant of God don’t have an excuse. Furthermore, we know this is the case because of what it says in the Bible.

Romans 1:20–21, “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power, and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

God is telling us that the knowledge of whom He is is evident around us and that what we ought to do is recognize His existence and give Him glory. So, it doesn’t matter what situation a person might find himself in. What is around him in creation is sufficient to inform him that there is a true and living God. Therefore, he is without excuse.

But some might object by saying that the Bible says you cannot be saved without knowing Jesus (John 14:6). So, if people have never heard of Him, then they are still in trouble. They are lost.

To this, we can say that God has his ways of communicating His presence to people around the world. Though salvation can only be found in Christ, there are plenty of instances where God has revealed himself to those who do not have the “normal” revelation of Scripture. Presently, in the Middle East, there are reports of thousands upon thousands of Muslims having visions and dreams of Jesus, and they are coming to the belief in Christ. Take John 4 for example, when Jesus was traveling north in Israel, went out of his way in order to meet the Samaritan woman and minister to her. In other words, God has his ways of meeting people, and we ought not to be so narrow to think he cannot reach anyone in the world.
 
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