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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

rosends

Well-Known Member
He read the Old Testament and came to the conclusion that original sin is taught there. He isn't a believer in Christ, and thus it is highly unlikely that he could be a biased source about Judaism.
He is an uneducated source and you are quoting him though he has no knowledge. That's your choice, but you aren't going to convince anyone if your sources are ignorant.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I believe that types and shadows existed in the Old Testament, because when you read the Bible over and over again you notice things that you didn't notice before.
You can believe that but that avoids the fact that you made a claim about "forgiveness" and its being absent and I just cited biblical text which shows that you are wrong.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The heart of man is desperately wicked shows that we are not inherently good.
Who says the heart is wicked? The heart is the source of deceit according to the text, but one cannot fool God. Of course, as this entire section is talking about "man" and not "child" -- verses 9 and 7 use the word "gever" which, if you look it up you will see, means "man, strong man, warrior (emphasising strength or ability to fight)".

It makes no statement about how we are born being deceitful, just that when we are men, the heart is that source. If this is your "source" for a Jewish notion of "original sin" then you are as misled as that joelr guy about Judaism
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Who says the heart is wicked? The heart is the source of deceit according to the text, but one cannot fool God. Of course, as this entire section is talking about "man" and not "child" -- verses 9 and 7 use the word "gever" which, if you look it up you will see, means "man, strong man, warrior (emphasising strength or ability to fight)".

It makes no statement about how we are born being deceitful, just that when we are men, the heart is that source. If this is your "source" for a Jewish notion of "original sin" then you are as misled as that joelr guy about Judaism

Man is an umbrella term that refers to men and women, and humanity in general.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
It would be really helpful for you if you'd stop using Christian sites to tell you what Jews believe / what the Tanakh says.

He can't. In the thread where he claimed that (עלמה) means "virgin" and the masculine form (עלם) means "virgin" he admitted that he didn't know Hebrew and he provided links that even contradicted what he claimed.

That is why he won't agree to do a Zoom where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used. I think he trying to pull a jedi mind trick and waste everyone's time.

201xxg.jpg
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Thank you, so that's another difference between Jesus and animal sacrifices. Jesus atones for everything while animal sacrifices atone only for accidental sins.

Are you sure you want to keep comparing the two?

The idea of the Messiah being a Savior is consistent with even the most fair judge has to be righteous and punish sin. God became the Messiah as the deepest expression of love for his creation. There is no person good enough for heaven. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:10

There is none righteous, no not one.
If a person could be good enough to make it to heaven on their own merit, why did God the Father, the creator of all there is on heaven and on earth, permit his own innocent son Jesus to be falsely accused, shamefully and painfully mistreated, and nailed to a Roman cross to die? He suffered and died because death and eternal separation from him, is the consequences for sin.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
He can't. In the thread where he claimed that (עלמה) means "virgin" and the masculine form (עלם) means "virgin" he admitted that he didn't know Hebrew and he provided links that even contradicted what he claimed.

That is why he won't agree to do a Zoom where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used. I think he trying to pull a jedi mind trick and waste everyone's time.

201xxg.jpg

I believe that it's impossible to determine exactly what the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 meant to the original hearers when it was delivered. The background of that verse is that the people of Judah were being threatened by the Israelites in the north, who were joined by the Arameans. Their intent was to seize Jerusalem and remove the reigning king, Ahaz, who was from the line of David. This was a frontal attack on the dynasty from which the Messiah would come. Unfortunately, Ahaz was a faithless ruler. The Lord sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure him that his enemies would be defeated if he would trust in God alone. He refused to stand firm in his faith. Isaiah told him to ask God for a sign to assure him, but Ahaz didn't. So God unilaterally provides him a sign: the 'almah will give birth to a son and he will be called Immanuel. And incidentally, Ahaz was being addressed not simply as the king but as a representative of the house of David, and in two verses he was referred to in the plural, so Ahaz was not being addressed alone.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 53 is not about the Messiah. It is about the servant, Israel.

According to Isaiah 49:1-7, the servant appears to have failed in his mission and God says don't be discouraged, because not only have I chosen you to regather Israel, but also to be a light to the nations. Who does that sound like? Apparently failed in his mission to Israel, yet becomes a light to the nations, and we will know then the final fulfillment, restoring Israel to God. in the 50th chapter, there is a very specific word about the servant of the lord suffering terrible. It's speaking of an individual. Israel is referred to as a servant in Isaiah 41, but there is one referred to as a righteous one. In the 49th and 50th chapter, the servant is just an individual. By the time you get to 52:13 through 53:12, just an individual. Some have looked at it as kind of like a pyramid, starting with the base of the nation and going up to the point that one individual-the Messiah. So when we look at the text in context, what we see is that the servant of the Lord, sometimes can refer to the nation or a righteous remnant within the nation-but ultimately the righteous remnant of one-the Messiah-the redeemer. He's the one who suffers and dies for our sins according to Isaiah chapter 53.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Then what about the Messiah being a perfect sacrifice and born in Bethlehem? Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

There is no prophecy that the messiah is perfect. In the Bethlehem prophecy, Bethlehem simply represents the fact that the Messiah is born of the line of David, not that he is literally born in the city of Bethlehem. Being born in the city of Bethlehem wouldn't be much of a prophecy, as there are literally millions of people who have been born there.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is no prophecy that the messiah is perfect. In the Bethlehem prophecy, Bethlehem simply represents the fact that the Messiah is born of the line of David, not that he is literally born in the city of Bethlehem. Being born in the city of Bethlehem wouldn't be much of a prophecy, as there are literally millions of people who have been born there.

It's the combination of that and the Old Testament saying that the Messiah would be a perfect sacrifice. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

    • Leviticus 16 details how the priest is to give atonement for the sins of the people by shedding the blood of animals. These animals were substitutionary sacrifices. Moses's actions picture what Christ would do on the cross as the perfect sacrifice- deity in human form without sin and without blemish.

      Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
      II Corinthians 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

      John 1:29, ...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

      I Peter 1:18-19, ...redeemed with...the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

      Unlike the blood of goats which had to be offered once a year in atonement, Christ takes away our sins for eternity.



    • Born in Bethlehem.
      Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
      Micah 5:2, But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

      Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
      Luke 2:1, 4-7, ...there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. And Joseph also went up from Galilee out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son...
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
According to Isaiah 49:1-7, the servant appears to have failed in his mission and God says don't be discouraged, because not only have I chosen you to regather Israel, but also to be a light to the nations. Who does that sound like? Apparently failed in his mission to Israel, yet becomes a light to the nations, and we will know then the final fulfillment, restoring Israel to God. in the 50th chapter, there is a very specific word about the servant of the lord suffering terrible. It's speaking of an individual. Israel is referred to as a servant in Isaiah 41, but there is one referred to as a righteous one. In the 49th and 50th chapter, the servant is just an individual. By the time you get to 52:13 through 53:12, just an individual. Some have looked at it as kind of like a pyramid, starting with the base of the nation and going up to the point that one individual-the Messiah. So when we look at the text in context, what we see is that the servant of the Lord, sometimes can refer to the nation or a righteous remnant within the nation-but ultimately the righteous remnant of one-the Messiah-the redeemer. He's the one who suffers and dies for our sins according to Isaiah chapter 53.
Just TRY reading it with a different mind set. PRETEND for five minutes that the remnant of Israel is the suffering servant, addressed in the singular (as it is many times) which suffers for all of Israel. Vicarious suffering -- look that up.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is no prophecy that the messiah is perfect. In the Bethlehem prophecy, Bethlehem simply represents the fact that the Messiah is born of the line of David, not that he is literally born in the city of Bethlehem. Being born in the city of Bethlehem wouldn't be much of a prophecy, as there are literally millions of people who have been born there.

Jesus was both born of the line of David and literally in the city of Bethlehem.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Just TRY reading it with a different mind set. PRETEND for five minutes that the remnant of Israel is the suffering servant, addressed in the singular (as it is many times) which suffers for all of Israel. Vicarious suffering -- look that up.

The Messiah in Isaiah 53 resurrecting by prolonging his days matches what Jewish writings talk about. I don't agree with the Jewish belief of two messiahs, but it's based off of finding a replacement for Jesus-and thus it has roots in the second coming of Jesus. I believe that everyone has the same desire to know Christ but some people suppress it. Do Jewish People Expect Messiah to Resurrect? | Messianic Bible


“Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.” (Luke 24:12)

Did you know that a resurrected Messiah is not only a Christian belief? It is also very Jewish!

When Rabbis studied Zechariah 12:10–12 and realized that the Messiah must
die, many of them were left baffled. They wondered: How could a triumphant
Messiah Son of David die?


Some Rabbis solved the dilemma by creating two Messiahs. Messiah ben Joseph, according to Rabbis, is the suffering redeemer that the Hebrew Prophets often spoke of: someone who would battle the enemies of Israel and prepare the way for Messiah ben David.

Messiah ben David is expected to establish a blissful utopia on earth,
known as the Messianic Kingdom (Isaiah 2:4, 9:1–7, 11:6–9).

What makes this dilemma even more confusing is that the Rabbis of the late second Temple period believed that Messiah ben David would be a warrior as well.

A 20th century Jewish scholar put it this way:

“Under the charismatic leadership of the second Messiah, Messiah ben David, the great wars will continue. God fights the battles of His Messiah and the ultimate victory comes to pass.”1
How do these ideas apply to Believers in Yeshua as the Messiah?

By looking more closely at this second Messiah ben Joseph in Rabbinic

thought, we can better understand what the Jewish People expect of Messiah
and whether or not there really are two Messiahs as many Rabbis claim, or
just one Messiah who fulfills both roles, as Christians claim.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's the combination of that and the Old Testament saying that the Messiah would be a perfect sacrifice. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua
I already replied that the Messiah need not be born in Bethlehem, that the prophecy is rather that he be born of David's line (through his bio dad).

Sin offerings don't need to be blood to atone. Poor people who don't have the money to bring an animal, can make a grain offering for atonement. Also, sin offerings are only for unintentional sins. You can't atone for an intentional sin via blood offering or anything else--you can only repent from them.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Forget about Daniel -- it will not tell you who the messiah will be.

The only way to know the messiah is to find someone who fulfills ALL the messianic prophecies. Jesus simply did not do that. He did not usher in an era of world peace. He did not bring all the Jews back to Israel. He did not rule from Jerusalem. Thus, he CANNOT be the messiah, no matter how much you want him to be.

When Jesus returns, there will be 1000 years of peace, and all of Israel will be regathered. He will rule the kingdoms of the world righteously from Jerusalem. There are Jewish writings that hint about the two functions of the Messiah. Do Jewish People Expect Messiah to Resurrect? | Messianic Bible

Like Joseph, Messiah Would Suffer

While Joseph suffered spiritually, Rabbis point to the prophets who write
about the physical death of God’s suffering servant. A rare few refer to
the Prophet Isaiah:
“Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; Whereas we did esteem him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded because of our transgressions, He was crushed because of our iniquities: The chastisement of our welfare was upon him, And with his stripes we were healed.” (Isaiah 53:4–5, JPS)

However, when talking about the suffering servant, most Rabbis refer to the
Prophet Zechariah. He writes that in the last days, after God wages war against the nations who come against Jerusalem: the people of Israel will mourn for one they have pierced:

“They will look on me, because they have pierced him, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.” (Zechariah 12:10)

There is much discussion about who this pierced one is and who the people
of Israel are mourning for.

As we look at Rabbinic writings, we are told that he is Messiah ben Joseph,
who dies in the battle of Gog and Magog (Ezekiel 38–39; Talmud (Sukkah 52a).

Though he is killed, it is not the end of this Messiah. He will be resurrected!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Jesus was both born of the line of David and literally in the city of Bethlehem.
Again, it is irrelevant that he was born in Bethlehem.

He cannot have been born of the line of David unless you can show me his BIO dad, and that bio dad's lineage. Who was his bio dad?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I already replied that the Messiah need not be born in Bethlehem, that the prophecy is rather that he be born of David's line (through his bio dad).

Sin offerings don't need to be blood to atone. Poor people who don't have the money to bring an animal, can make a grain offering for atonement. Also, sin offerings are only for unintentional sins. You can't atone for an intentional sin via blood offering or anything else--you can only repent from them.

That doesn't mean that the Messiah won't be born in Bethlehem. Joseph was a descendant of Solomon and the virgin Mary was a descendant of Nathan.
 
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